The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating Senedd proceedings, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are set out on your agenda.

1. Questions to the Minister for Social Justice

The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Social Justice, and the first question is from Ken Skates.

Universal Credit

Ken Skates AC: 1. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact that the £20-a-week cut to universal credit will have on Welsh communities? OQ57034

Jane Hutt AC: Analysis by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation shows that the brutal cut to universal credit is impacting on all communities in Wales. In every Welsh constituency, over a quarter of families with children have seen their income fall. To be taking money from our poorest families when bills are rising is shameful.

Ken Skates AC: Well, thank you, Minister, and I agree. Clearly, irrespective of the arguments for and against making the cut, making the cut will clearly have a very, very significant impact on many people in Wales. And, Minister, as you are aware, my north Wales colleague Jack Sargeant has spoken publicly and regularly in support of a trial to explore the feasibility of a universal basic income here in Wales. Are you able to provide an update on what progress the Welsh Government has made with regard to the launching of a trial and what consideration has been given to trialling UBI here in north Wales?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, can I thank Ken Skates for his questions? You will all have heard yesterday that the First Minister provided an update on the basic income pilot in response to his First Minister’s questions. He said, and I will repeat again to clarify,
'Subject to the resolution of remaining practical matters, including the interface of our basic income payments with the benefits system, we plan to introduce the pilot in the financial year...1 April 2022.'
And I will be issuing a ministerial update soon to provide more detail. But in response to your first question, of course, this is about alleviating poverty—basic income is about alleviating poverty. But it’s also about giving people more control over their lives, having a positive effect on mental health and well-being.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Weinidog. I'm sure everyone here has been contacted by somebody who has been impacted by the cuts in universal credit. I wanted to give one example: a Mrs D who contacted me recently. She said this, 'Last March, I was diagnosed with a rare type of blood cancer. Overnight, I went from an independent, self-sufficient woman, counting the years to retirement, to a house-bound unemployable sixty-something reliant on benefits and the generosity of others. Universal credit was my safety net and I’m grateful that it was there when I needed it. However, this month, it feels like Boris Johnson has slashed a gaping hole in the bottom of it and I’m struggling to hold on.'
I appreciate that the Welsh Government has stepped up on many occasions to fill in the gaping hole left by the Tories' swingeing cuts, and the First Minister in particular received great credit and much praise throughout the pandemic for taking a different stance to the Westminster Government. This needs to happen again, Minister. Will the Welsh Government consider extending the discretionary assistance fund, which closed on 30 September, to help people like Mrs D and individuals who have been devastated by this cut. Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Rhys ab Owen, and you gave a very clear example—a human example—of great concern of the adverse impact already experienced by your constituent in terms of that cut of the £20 universal credit. And it is quite clear that we have to play our part to ensure that we can support those families. The UK Government may have abandoned these families, but the Welsh Government will not. So, it is the support that we give through our discretionary assistance fund, which is one route to helping these families that will face, as we know—and as we discussed in the Equality and Social Justice Committee this morning—a harsh winter to get the financial help they need to heat their homes and feed their children. And so, it is important that I am able to, as I have announced and as we discussed this morning, extend the flexibilities and extend the discretionary assistance fund through until March and then consider—as we move through this, and indeed the pandemic, as well as the cuts from UK Government—what impact that has in terms of taking the discretionary assistance fund forward.

Diversity in the Public Sector

Natasha Asghar AS: 2. What action is the Welsh Government taking to encourage diversity in employment in the public sector? OQ57042

Hannah Blythyn AC: This Government is committed to advancing equality, diversity and inclusion across the Welsh public sector. We're using all levers at our disposal and are committed to taking a social partnership approach to encourage and influence employers to take action to ensure a more diverse workforce.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thanks, Minister. During a recent meeting of the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, it was revealed that only 4.2 per cent of staff employed in the Senedd identify as BAME. Now, of those—and pardon me for saying this, but I prefer the term 'ethnic minorities', so that's what I want to continue with in my question—ethnic minority members of staff, 81 per cent are in the lowest two pay bands. Given the Welsh Government's wish to ensure the public sector is inclusive and reflects the ethnic diversity of Wales, do you agree that the Senedd should lead by example, and what discussions have you had about increasing the number of ethnic minority individuals in senior roles here within the Senedd itself?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for her question. And I think the fact that you're here now—. And we've all talked before about how visibility in public life is really important too, in terms of actually setting an example and not wanting to be the only one but the first of many, and to actually encourage people to put themselves forward as well, and to have a more representative Senedd not just in terms of the people in the Chamber, but the people who support us and work across the Senedd estate. So, the Welsh Government is very much committed to doing that, and I'm sure it's something—I was looking at the Llywydd as you were asking the question, too—for the Senedd Commission, but also I'm sure it's something that we can work on together, collectively, in a common aim and common ambition. And I'm sure the Member would be welcome to be part of that work as well.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. As chair of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency in previous terms, I'm working with National Energy Action, NEA Cymru, and the Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru, to re-establish the cross-party group in the sixth Senedd. Our first meeting will take place via Zoom at 11 a.m. on Monday, 8 November—diary note for everybody, please—and I thank you for confirming your attendance as Minister for Social Justice. We recognise that tackling fuel poverty is a social justice issue, but we recognise that improving the energy efficiency of the homes of fuel-poor households in Wales will also contribute to climate change objectives in Wales. Given that fuel poverty sits within your portfolio, but energy efficiency sits within the portfolio of the Minister for Climate Change, how specifically are you co-ordinating action with her to ensure that the wider social justice goals in tackling fuel poverty are not lost in pursuit of climate change objectives?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Mark Isherwood for that question, and I do look forward to attending the cross-party group on fuel poverty. Clearly, this has to be addressed in a cross-Government way, so working very closely with the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James, and appreciating it from her perspective as being responsible for housing and tackling climate change. So, working together, particularly in relation to tackling fuel poverty, we did publish the plan to tackle fuel poverty in March of this year. We had a public consultation and, of course, many responses from those who will, I'm sure, be attending the cross-party group. But I think it's important just to outline—and this, obviously, alongside my colleague Julie James—our targets. And they are targets that, over the next 15 years, no household is estimated to be living in severe or persistent fuel poverty; no more than 5 per cent of households are estimated to be living in fuel poverty at any one time; and that we should look to the number of households that are at risk of falling into fuel poverty, and they should be halved, by more than 50 per cent, based on the 2018 assessment. What's crucial is that we need to make sure that 155,000 homes—that's 12 per cent of homes in Wales—have safe and comfortable home environments, and that's where our close working is so critically important.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. The connection between fuel poverty and health is very real. Speaking here in November 2018, I noted that the annual cost to the Welsh NHS of treating people made ill by living in a cold, damp home was approximately £67 million, with health impacts caused by cold homes predominantly relating to cardiovascular and respiratory problems. Low temperatures also diminish resistance to infection and encourage damp and mould growth in the home. And cold indoor conditions have also been linked to poor mental health, resulting from anxiety and stress, and cold homes also exacerbate social isolation and reduce educational attainment, therefore crossing into social justice issues. Speaking at National Energy Action Cymru's fuel poverty conference in February 2019, I stated that your predecessor had told the cross-party group that the Welsh Government would be developing a cold weather plan in conjunction with Public Health Wales, and that a crisis fund and adoption in Wales of the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guideline and quality standard on cold-related ill health and excess winter deaths would also be key to this. However, yesterday's statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on the Welsh Government's health and social care winter plan made no reference to fuel poverty. Given that winter is almost upon us again, what specific year-round cold weather resilience planning is the Welsh Government therefore taking to address this, as it relates to the cross-cutting issues in your social justice portfolio?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, again, for that follow-up question. I've mentioned the plan to tackle fuel poverty, published earlier on this year. What's crucial about that is that we also have a fuel poverty advisory panel, which, of course, is attended by many of those who you are working with in terms of the cross-party group, and it is actually helping us to co-ordinate action to tackle fuel poverty in Wales. What's important, and linked to your first question, is the Warm Homes programme, and it's clear that there's a link between good health and well-being and also tackling fuel poverty. So, the Warm Homes programme, as you're aware, I know, includes the demand-led Nest scheme, which ends in March 2023, and the Arbed scheme, ending later on this year, and that's providing support for people most in need in terms of the Warm Homes programme.
But I think it's important to show that, for example, this is where schemes under the Warm Homes programme are subject to a maximum level of investment for each dwelling to maximise the impact of the scheme, and improvements not only for warmer homes, but also saving households on their annual energy bills, because that's what's so important about the free home energy efficiency measures that are now being implemented through the Nest scheme.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you, and whilst I welcome your comments about the Warm Homes plan, the question was specific to the cold weather plan, which NEA Cymru's annual fuel poverty monitor have called for for a long time, and which the Minister in the last Welsh Government accepted in 2019 and said the Welsh Government would be developing.
But, moving on, on 1 October, the energy price cap set by energy regulator Ofgem increased, driven by a rise in energy costs, with gas prices hitting a record high as the world emerged from lockdown. Although the price cap ensures that suppliers only pass on legitimate costs to customers, NEA Cymru warned that this rise would plunge 22,500 more households in Wales into fuel poverty this winter, and called for deeper protection and more direct financial support for low-income households this winter.How do you therefore respond to their subsequent statement that the Welsh Government has a vital role to play to support fuel-poor households across tenure to retrofit and upgrade the energy efficiency of their homes, and how will you respond to their call on the Welsh Government to expand the financial support available to assist those struggling to meet growing energy bills, as well as longer term investment in home energy efficiency, prioritising the poorest households in the least efficient homes?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, of course, in response to your specific question, which I will respond to, about the cold weather plan, we will have a cold weather plan in place. I talked about our plan to tackle fuel poverty, and ,of course, all of these are interacting strategies and plans to tackle fuel poverty. But we'll be able to respond to that in terms of updating by the end of November.
This is where the Minister for Climate Change and I are working very closely together, and we are making our representations to the UK Government, which I hope you are as well. You're making representations to me, but representations need to be made to the UK Government in terms of tackling these issues. And, very clearly, we need to ensure that there is the funding available to enable us to play our part. And we'll look to see what happens in the comprehensive spending review announcements shortly.
But, also, on Ofgem itself, meetings held with the Minister for Climate Change, and representations that we're making, recognising that there will be an increase in the number of households facing fuel poverty, in fact, this was discussed fully in our Equality and Social Justice Committee this morning in terms of debt advice, and the fact that we are ensuring that not only are we reaching out with £20.1 million in the Nest scheme—100 per cent of installations completed by Wales-based installers, including apprenticeships—but we are looking to benefit entitlement checks, which, in themselves, through our income maximisation programme, are actually resulting in benefit take-up to support households who will be vulnerable; who will be vulnerable, because of those cuts that we've just been talking about from universal credit and the end of furlough, rising fuel prices and rising food prices too.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, following on from the previous question, you may remember that I wrote to you earlier this summer when the news first emerged of the rises in fuel tariffs. I warned then of the impacts this would have on household budgets, especially in light of the Tory Government's decision to plough ahead with the removal of the universal credit uplift, despite knowing the harm that it would cause. The reason we are in this position is partly down to the incompetency of the Tory Government in Westminster in failing to invest in gas storage capacity, making the UK especially vulnerable to external shocks. For me, this underlines Plaid Cymru's plans to establish a home-grown energy company that would increase our resilience and reduce our reliance on external forces. The last few months have surely told us that we cannot rely on Westminster when it comes to energy supply. Is increasing our energy independence under active consideration in order to tackle fuel poverty and exorbitant prices? And, if not, why not?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, thank you very much. And it's absolutely right and timely that these questions are coming about what role and power we have got, as a Welsh Government, in terms of tackling fuel poverty. We talked this morning about the perfect storm that is going to be hitting and affecting vulnerable families. So, we need to ensure that we can have as much of a grip and a hold and responsibilities in terms of taking this forward, in terms of energy supply and resources. Clearly, this is not entirely in my portfolio, although in the cross-Government way in which we work in the Welsh Government, I'm very clearly working with my colleagues the Minister and Deputy Minister for climate change on these issues.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch yn fawr. Moving on to something that I've got an interest in: in recent months, Wales has welcomed refugees, following the sudden fall of the Afghanistan Government. It's hard to imagine the terror that they felt when fleeing their homes, and it's only right that Wales has played its part in proving to be a safe haven for some of these families. Over the last 20 years, WARD or the Wales Asylum Seeking and Refugee Doctors scheme has been a big success in supporting people to restart their professional lives here in Wales. They have done this by removing the barriers to gaining General Medical Council registration that is required to practice in the UK. The scheme has also saved a lot of money, since training new doctors costs around £230,000, whereas the WARD process costs around £30,000 for each doctor completing the scheme. Can this Welsh Government commit to helping more refugees and asylum seeking professionals to restart their careers by looking to expand the remit of the original WARD scheme to include other professionals, and help our NHS?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Peredur, for that question. I was very proud to be health Minister when we started along that route, with the refugee doctors scheme, as we called it then, 20 years ago. And I always recall Aled Edwards reporting on how many of those refugee doctors we were supporting through language skills, through the scheme that developed, and which has now been replicated and followed, not in Wales, but across the UK and further afield, and how so many of those doctors who then got GMC recognition were working in the NHS across Wales and the UK. So, it is very important that we look to the opportunities and the scope of that scheme. It will be very much for the Minister for Health and Social Services—. In fact, I've raised that question with her, in terms of not just doctors, but other health professionals as well. But I would like to say that we do have the opportunities, again, with our Afghan refugees who come to join us here in Wales, many of whom have skills—their whole families; the husbands and wives have skills—as we've seen with the Syrian refugees, who are now playing their part, particularly in the NHS, and I certainly will be raising that point again about the scheme and how we can enhance it.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, and thank you for taking that forward. Recently, I brought forward a debate on substance misuse. During that debate, the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being noted that the Government approach to substance misuse problems is firmly rooted in a health and harm reduction approach. Given this, how does the Welsh Government work with and engage with the police and crime commissioners to ensure this approach is translated into action with police on the ground? Specifically, how do the Government and the PCCs guide officers to identify substance misuse or addiction problems and to respondappropriately in line with the health and harm reduction approach?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, thank you for that question. It's very timely again, because tomorrow I'm meeting with the lead PCC, police and crime commissioner, DafyddLlywelyn, and I will be, and he will, I'm sure, be aware of questions asked to me this afternoon with my lead role in terms of policing. I co-chair with the First Minister the policing partnership board, and I have to say that, over the last 18 months, although we have been focusing on the impact of the pandemic and the support that the police forces have been giving to respond to the pandemic and to the very welcome expansion of our community police support officers, we also have had substance misuse clearly on the agenda. It is something where, particularly, the police forces, led often by the police and crime commissioners, are looking at prevention in terms of the role of our police services in Wales. And you know, we do focus on what are Welsh needs and Welsh circumstances, and I will be raising this again with DafyddLlywelyn, the lead police and crime commissioner, when I meet him tomorrow.

Question 3 [OQ57061] is withdrawn. Question 4, Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Sexual Assault Referral Centres

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 4. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of sexual assault referral centres? OQ57059

Jane Hutt AC: We continue to work in partnership with the NHS, the police and the third sector to provide access to sexual assault referral centres in Wales. This joint working ensures access to trained and experienced professionals for help and support, and to provide advice for victims of sexual assault.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, and I'm particularly grateful that you answered through the medium of Welsh. These sexual assault referral centres provide a very important service to vulnerable people who clearly have gone through appalling experiences. Now, when one looks at sexual assault statistics, there isn't much difference between the number of sexual assaults for every 1,000 of the population in our rural communities as compared to urban communities. However, the level of provision available in our rural areas is appalling, particularly in north Wales. There is only one sexual health referral centre in the whole of north Wales, and that's in Colwyn Bay. It's a four-hour journey on public transport for somebody from Tudweiliog, for example, or from Harlech to Colwyn Bay. Minister, don't you agree that it's time that we saw investment in a sexual assault referral centre, a second in north Wales, in a place that is more convenient to the residents of Gwynedd and Anglesey?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mabon ap Gwynfor, and thank you for putting that focus on our SARC programme. It is so important that we do have that access to sexual assault referral centres across the whole of Wales, and focusing particularly on rural Wales and north Wales, where you, obviously, are the representative. We do have robust collaborative working arrangements to ensure that there is that multi-agency response, which I know you recognise is crucial. We have a programme board, which oversees this in terms of the SARC provision across Wales. It's hosted in the NHS collaborative and, of course, it's all aiming to improve health outcomes for victims and survivors of sexual assault. The programme is actually based on a regional approach, so I will take this back in terms of the representations you're making today. We do have an integrated service already available in north Wales, but I think it's your points about distance and access to accredited facilities, for example, that are crucially important. I'll just, perhaps, also mention that this is something where we have a new regional hub being developed here in Cardiff, but that can be a model for the rest of Wales.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you, Mabon, for asking this really important question. In our region, ahead of this year's White Ribbon events, I've been working with sexual violence charity, New Pathways, and it operates six of Wales's eight SARCs. They do an amazing job of supporting victims, overwhelmingly women and girls, and I'm pleased to say that they recently received new funding to support more people in more ways. But far too many victims are let down by the criminal justice system. Police and prosecutors need far more resources and training to expedite sexual assault and rape investigations in Wales. This is critical, not least because we know that lengthy court processes, combined with persistently and pitifully low conviction rates, put off victims from reporting those crimes. So, what discussions have you had, Minister, with Ministry of Justice officials about prioritising victims over perpetrators and improving swift access to justice?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I thank Joyce Watson for that question, and also in recognition of her diligent and long-standing commitment to addressing the needs of victims in terms of improving the sexual assault referral centres' provision. And also focusing particularly in terms of the need for justice for those victims and the importance, as I said in response to the first question from Mabon, of this multi-agency response. This is about how we prioritise our SARC services, and we need to ensure that the police and the Home Office play their parts as far as this is concerned, so we were also very pleased to support New Pathways in terms of additional funding and support.
But we have actually got to instilconfidence in victims that, if they report, those who abuse will be held to account, and that's why, of course, in terms of the importance of us having influence and furthering that influence to more responsibility in the criminal justice system, it is so important that you raised this issue this afternoon.
Can I just say that it's also very linked to our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy, which we are developing the next phase of for the next five years? It's interesting that we are actually enhancing remote court hearing facilities, for example, across Wales, which I think we are helping to fund, or are funding, because we know how important it is for victims to present secure evidence safely by video link.

Community Banking Services

Russell George AC: 5. How is the Welsh Government supporting community banking services? OQ57038

Jane Hutt AC: The Welsh Government supports credit unions that provide an alternative community banking service. We also work with LINK, which runs a financial inclusion programme to protect access to free cash for all, but especially for those in more deprived communities where there is a greater reliance on cash.

Russell George AC: Many thanks, Minister, for your response there. Members across this Chamber, of course, will have supported their communities in attempting to keep banks in their own constituencies, and as we all know in this Chamber, the banks will perhaps receive those petitions and then go ahead and ignore, and banks will close. But, of course, I've been a long-time advocate myself, Minister, of a community banking model; I believe that there does need to be Government intervention, so I certainly support the Welsh Government's aims via Banc Cambria. This is an absolutely crucial project. I know, in a Government statement just before the election, Minister, the Government Minister, then Ken Skates, said that he hoped to be in a positionto make further announcements in regard to Banc Cambria before the end of 2021. So, I wonder if you could provide any information today in terms of when that announcement will be brought forward, but particularly how Members can lobby for locations to be in their own constituencies. I've been a long-time advocate that those banks should be in place in my own constituency in towns like Llanidloes, Machynlleth and Welshpool, so I'll continue to lobby for those areas. But, Minister, can you provide an update—because I understand you will be the Minister responsible once Banc Cambria has been developed—in terms of supporting Members to ensure that Banc Cambria's locations are in areas across Wales that are most appropriate, and particularly those, of course, in rural constituencies like mine?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Russell George. It is always good and important to drive things forward when we get that cross-party support for a proposal. It has been clearly supported by the Welsh Government, taking on the pioneering work of Ken Skates, and I also would say Jack Sargeant as well, who raised many questions on this point. But, I have to say that it is across this Welsh Parliament that Banc Cambria is seen to be a goal that we should be aiming for. Because the serious point is that we've got bank closures in all our consistencies on the high street. It's a continuing decline, and we have to ensure people have access to banking services. I've mentioned the credit union movement, and we're putting more and more funding and support into the credit unions.
Just a quick update: you know that we have direct discussions, as I think I've reported, between the regulator and the private sector financial institution, because the banking sector is tightly regulated, it is a reserved matter, and the establishment of the community bank is contingent on private sector delivery. But we're completely committed to the support and the creation of the community bank for Wales. I think it's important that we can acknowledge and keep raising the questions, recognising that we're working with the private sector. They're developing their commercial proposals in line with the regulatory approval process, and we are delivering operational plans in parallel with these regulatory assessments.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: It is a concern in several parts of Wales and for many organisations that the banking sector appears to be turning their backs on community organisations. We know that HSBC is going to start charging a fee for community accounts. It is something that several people have contacted me about—Merched y Wawr, for example, and local eisteddfodau. I encourage everyone to sign a petition by the Member of the Senedd and the Member of Parliament for Dwyfor Meirionnydd calling on the banks to change their minds on this.
If the banks are going to turn their backs on the communities that provide them with their profits, let us invest more in alternative banking methods. Credit unions are one model. I too know that Banc Cambria is very eager to offer this kind of package to community organisations. Has the Welsh Government discussed with those behind Banc Cambria the possibility of providing this package that would be of so much assistance to organisations? I'm also awaiting a response from the Financial Conduct Authority to correspondence from me calling on them to look into this issue. Has the Welsh Government also discussed that with them or are you considering doing that on behalf of the community organisations of Wales?

Jane Hutt AC: I thank the Member. Rhun, thank you for raising that again, because this has been raised with me by many Senedd Members, that voluntary organisations are experiencing difficulties with regard to access to banking services. There are difficulties in terms of identifying an account that's free and suitable for the needs of a voluntary organisation, as well as even being able to open one in the first place. You've acknowledged the role of the credit unions, who can provide accounts and banking facilities to charitable organisations. I don't think everybody, perhaps, is aware of that. But also, many of you will know of the work of Purple Shoots, which is a pioneering microloans charity that's developed in Wales. They're now working very closely with credit unions to help them facilitate this.
We can't let the banks off the hook, as far as I'm concerned, on this, and we are meeting with them to, yet again, not just talk about the extent of the closures—we're all getting them daily, almost, aren't we—but the fact that this is excluding people and charitable organisations. We do, though, have an opportunity as well, with the third sector support that we've got from our county voluntary councils, along with the WCVA. They are establishing a community asset loan fund, and they are going to have funding that we are helping them with—a pot of £2 million in financial transaction capital. They can offer loans, for example, for organisations seeking to take on community assets. Also, they can get loans to help build up credit history for voluntary organisations. But I'm certainly going to be taking this back to the banking sector with my colleague Vaughan Gething as well. This is crucial. It's much reserved, but Banc Cambria is on its way.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Further to Russell's and Rhun's points, community banking is about high-street presence, which we are increasingly seeing banks walk away from over the last few years, if not decades. It's also about that free access to banking for community groups and charities. We are seeing HSBC as the latest one to take the money and run, and it is not good enough. So, I ask the Minister to make the strongest representations. Because I have had the response from HSBC to my letter to them; they have explained to me the commercial reasons why it's imperative that they don't provide free banking for these charitable and community organisations anymore. That is not good enough, and they are not the only ones. So, would the Minister join with me in making those strong representations back to HSBC? They may listen or not. But, if not, direct constituents of mine and others, people who believe in ethical, free banking for charities and community groups—it could be the credit unions, like Bridgend Lifesavers or Maesteg credit union; there are other banks and building societies out there who will do it—if they take the money and run, let's vote with our feet and leave them high and dry as well.

Jane Hutt AC: I would say to Huw Irranca-Davies that I think we all join that expression of almost despair about the way that the commercial banks have left our communities. We will be making those representations. I think that we could all repeat examples of the same kind that you describe, and the fact that there is no commitment to the community. What about corporate social responsibility, which there's supposed to be in terms of the private sector and the banking world?
I just wanted to assure colleagues and Members here today that Banc Cambria estimates that, subject to regulatory approval and investment, the community bank could be established in 2022—this won't be fast enough for us and for our communities, I know—with a customer launch in 2023. It's crucial that we get this right. But, we know that it will be about roll-out and the location of branches, and you'll all be wanting one, won't you, in your towns and communities. You have just got to stick with us and back us in progressing this in getting that ethical mutual banking arrangement with Banc Cambria.

The Discretionary Assistance Fund

Buffy Williams MS: 6. Will the Minister provide an update on the discretionary assistance fund? OQ57056

Jane Hutt AC: The discretionary assistance fund continues to provide vital support to the most financially vulnerable people in Wales. Since March 2020, over 300,000 emergency payments have been made, totalling more than £20 million. I recently announced that the additional flexibilities provided throughout the pandemic will be extended until March 2022.

Buffy Williams MS: Thank you, Minister. With furlough ending, the devastating £20-a-week universal credit uplift cut and the national insurance increase, it seems that the UK Government cares little for the most vulnerable in our communities, heading into what will already be a tough winter. Thousands of families in Rhondda and across Wales will struggle. Thousands of families will be forced to make impossible decisions, like eating or heating.
I'm grateful to the Welsh Government for providing support through the discretionary assistance fund, and I'm grateful to the thousands of charities and community groups across Wales supporting families and children in poverty. Over the summer, the Welsh Government set aside funding for the successful Summer of Fun. Will the Minister explore the possibility of a similar scheme through the winter months for those hit hardest by the decisions of the UK Government, so that we see a winter of warmth not a winter of worry?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank very much indeed, Buffy Williams, representing the Rhondda and the communities where you know the hardship that is already being experienced because of that cruel and senseless cut to universal credit. And let's remember, that £20 was going to be spent in the local economy as well as meeting the needs of those families. We discussed this this morning—I mentioned the Equality and Social Justice Committee because of the impact that these cuts will have on families and how vulnerable they will be. We’ve discussed fuel poverty today and we will, I know, recognise this in terms of the importance of the discretionary assistance fund.
We did put more money into the discretionary assistance fund because of the unprecedented need we had during the pandemic, but also those flexibilities for people who will have to—and surely they will need to—come back for more payments. I want to also just comment in terms of responding to your question about the impact. In terms of fuel poverty, we have agreed the reintroduction of fuel support for off-grid households from 1 October until 31 March 2022, which will allow many households who rely on costly oil and liquefied petroleum gas purchases to be supported this winter.
The Summer of Fun was a great opportunity, and across all our constituencies we know how children and young people and families really benefited from that. It wasn’t within my portfolio; I shall be sharing this question with the Minister for Health and Social Services. Because I think we do need to look, as the Deputy Minister for Social Services is doing—we are looking at our older generation and the impact on their health and well-being, as well as the impacts of senseless cuts that are coming from the UK Government.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, according to evidence submitted to the Equality and Social Justice Committee, there are some challenges to be addressed. Karen Davies from Purple Shoots, a Responsible Finance provider, said that awareness of the fund is low and is not well promoted, and Shelter Cymru note that it has seen a significant number of applications to the discretionary assistance fund rejected, many due to a cap on the number of applications people can make. Does the Minister accept that these matters need to be addressed if people are to benefit from the scheme? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Altaf Hussain. In my response to the question from Buffy Williams I did say, and I think this is important to acknowledge, that since March 2020 last year, over 300,000 emergency payments have been made—300,000—totalling more than £20 million. But I did say, in response to questions this morning at the Equality and Social Justice Committee, that we are looking at accessibility to the discretionary assistance fund. Clearly, as Members will know, it works very closely with Citizens Advice through the single advice fund. It does refer people who are most financially vulnerable for extra, additional advice to improve their circumstances. Local authorities have a key role to play as well. I think the evidence that people are accessing that funding is all-important. Actually, we have got this discretionary assistance fund here in Wales. Nothing like this exists in England. We have got it here, and we’ve actually made awards of over £91 million since the discretionary assistance fund opened. But we are looking at the evidence that’s coming through about how we can improve access to the discretionary assistance fund, and that, I think, will be helpful in terms of answering those questions and responding to evidence where we know people are at the sharp end and need to access these funds, particularly as we move into what will be, I’m sure, a very tough winter.

Support for Vulnerable Households

Luke Fletcher AS: 7. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government regarding the support fund announced for vulnerable households over the winter? OQ57060

Jane Hutt AC: Wales will receive £25 million consequential funding related to the household support fund, and I've been working with ministerial colleagues to identify priorities for this funding, which will provide immediate support to vulnerable households over the winter. This includes help with rising domestic fuel prices. I will announce further details shortly.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that answer. According to the UK Government's recent household support fund announcements, as the Minister alluded to, the Barnett formula will apply in the usual way, meaning that devolved administrations will receive up to £79 million of that £500 million. And, for Wales, that means we will receive just £25 million, as you've said. This, of course, when the Joseph Rowntree Foundation's analysis of the UK Government's stats shows that Wales consistently has the highest poverty percentages in the UK. Can the Minister outline how the Welsh Government will look to prioritise that funding from UK Government to the best of its ability? And can the Minister update us on when the Government is pushing for the devolution of welfare? We have yet another example here of why we can't leave the welfare state in the hands of the UK Government.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Luke Fletcher, for that important question. I've said this more than once standing here, I think, over the last week or so since we heard we'd got a measly, derisory £25 million. Twenty-five million. You know, this is £20 off in terms of the universal credit, £6 billion that has been wiped out, and a measly £500 million for the whole of the UK—£25 million for Wales. And one of the points that hasn't been made enough: it's a one-off. And everyone knows how difficult it is with one-off funding—£25 million—because you know that you can't sustain it into a long-term access to funding for people at the sharp end. So, that's why we're looking very carefully at how we can target this money, but also looking at ways in which we can continue, as I've said, flexibilities that we've got in terms of the discretionary assistance fund and also winter fuel systems for off-grid homes.
But your point about responsibility and powers in relation to devolution of welfare, clearly, I have said, and, indeed, responded to questions in recent times—and from yourself, I'm sure, Luke Fletcher—that we are committed not just to consider all the evidence and the reports that have been done in terms of the impact of devolution of the administration of welfare, which is, of course, alongside what's happened in Scotland. And we are now committed to taking that forward in terms of exploring the options, the opportunities, and, indeed, crucially—. And this always comes down to this issue about how we can be assured that we get finance with responsibility, because that's one of the key issues with the UK Government.

Hate Crime

Rhianon Passmore AC: 8. What action is the Welsh Government taking to tackle hate crime in south-east Wales? OQ57070

Hannah Blythyn AC: There can be no place for hate and crimes of this nature in the Wales we all want to see. A statement issued last week set out the range of preventative work, support for victims, and awareness-raising that the Welsh Government is delivering. We work closely with partners through our hate and community tensions board, community cohesion programme, and the national hate crime report and support centre.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you very much, Deputy Minister. I was concerned to see that recent figures show homophobic hate crimes have tripled across the UK in the last six years. Indeed, up until 31 August this year, there were over 150 LGBTQ+ hate crimes reported to Gwent Police. How is the Welsh Government working to ensure that those who are victims of hate crime have the confidence to both come forward and report their experiences? And what is Welsh Government doing to engage with partners, such as Gwent Police, to eradicate the scourge of hate crime?

Hannah Blythyn AC: Well, I thank the Member for this important question, and I share with her the concern about the increase in numbers of recorded hate crimes. And this undoubtedly includes additional crimes taking place, but also it reflects better awareness of hate crime and increased confidence to report it, and better recording of such hate by police forces across Wales. And we very much, as you say, do take a partnership approach in Wales with our hate crime and community tensions board Cymru that engages all Welsh police forces, and that includes Gwent Police. And I know during National Hate Crime Awareness Week last week, Gwent Police and Victim Support's training and engagement officer for Gwent collaborated on an open training session to raise awareness of hate crime in the region.
But I think the raising-awareness aspect is really important, not just in terms of the forms that hate crime can take—so, whilst those physical attacks we've seen all too often reported these days are abhorrent, it also takes different forms: it can be verbal abuse, intimidation, threats, harassment and bullying, and it can take place offline and online. And I think, really, it is important to talk about it to encourage more people to realise the different forms, but also to come forward.
Actually, this year, both myself and my wife were on the receiving end of a hate crime. In August, just after we launched the Welsh Government's draft LGBTQ action plan consultation, one morning, I woke up to correspondence, and the next day she got something very similar, urging us for the deliverance of the spirit from homosexuality. It told us it was time to abandon a homosexual lifestyle and leave one another, and then went on to reference things around conversion therapy. I'm sharing it today because I want to encourage more people to come forward. I'm grateful for the support that we had, both in terms of when we reported that, but also from my colleagues, in particular my colleague here—my ministerial colleague—and just to encourage others to come forward, to stand up to hate crime and to stamp it out in Wales.

Thank you, Deputy Minister and Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and the Minister for the Constitution

We'll move on to our next item, questions to the Counsel General and the Minister for the Constitution, and the first question is from Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you. I'm having problems here today.

Humanist Marriages

Joyce Watson AC: 1. What discussions has the Counsel General had with other law officers regarding the campaign to grant humanist marriages legal recognition? OQ57051

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for an important question.The Welsh Government supports the Law Commission's proposals for a framework that would allow non-religious belief organisations to conduct legally binding weddings. The Minister for Social Justice has written to the UK Government expressing support of these proposals and seeking this work being taken forward in a timely fashion.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for that answer. You will be aware, of course, Minister, that there is legal recognition for humanist weddings in many other countries, but that is not the case for England and Wales. So, my question, then, to you is: are you pressing the UK Government to end the anomaly that currently exists with that legal recognition elsewhere, but not being afforded here in Wales and also in England?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that supplementary question. I should mention I am a member of Humanists UK. This is an issue that has been raised from time to time in this Chamber. We know that humanist marriages gained legal recognition in Scotland in 2005, in the Republic of Ireland in 2012 and in Northern Ireland in 2018, after a Court of Appeal decision. In Jersey 2019, in Guernsey 2021, and in the England and Wales jurisdiction it has been under review by the UK Government since 2013.
It is an irony, isn't it, that you can have a humanist funeral in Wales, but you can't have a humanist wedding? And I can confirm that—. If it's helpful, I can perhaps write, in conjunction with the Minister for Social Justice—well, if I confirm that I will write in the same terms that she has written, really, to give further support to the need for law reform in this area, and for, I believe, the devolution of this particular area to this Parliament. I think I can also mention that the Minister for Social Justice has met with Humanists UK yesterday. She's already confirmed that she will be writing again, and I'm more than happy to lend my support, if she thinks that's helpful, to that, and perhaps write jointly to the UK Government in respect of those two aspects: one, that reform needs to take place, but secondly, if the UK Government is unwilling to consider reform or to delay reform, despite the Law Commission work and the Court of Appeal judgment, that's a matter that could be devolved to us to take responsibility for.

The Establishment of the Law Council of Wales

Carolyn Thomas AS: 2. Will the Counsel General outline how the Welsh Government has been working with the legal sector to establish a Law Council of Wales? OQ57055

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that question on the law council of Wales. Since the beginning of 2020, we have been working closely with the legal sector to establish the law council for Wales, through discussions with the Law Society, commercial law firms and high-street practices, the bar, law schools, the judiciary and other leading representatives of the sector in Wales.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for your answer, Counsel General. I believe it is vital that legal education in Wales is firmly placed within the Welsh context and focuses on building an awareness of Welsh law. Ahead of the forthcoming meeting of the proposed members of its executive committee, can you outline your priorities for the remit of the law council?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that question, and as has been indicated, the establishment of a law council for Wales is one of the recommendations of the Thomas commission, and the recommendation also built on a call by Lord Lloyd-Jones for an institute for Welsh law to be established to promote the study of Welsh law and proposed a law council, but one with a wider remit than just legal education so that it would include a voice for the legal community in Wales by promoting awareness of the growing body of Welsh law, ensuring the provision of legal resources through the medium of Welsh and helping Welsh law schools to equip students with education and training to thrive in practice, but, in addition, that it would be an umbrella body to share resources, support training on Welsh law for the judiciary and professions and ensure collaboration and co-operative working to contribute to the development and sustainability of the legal sector. So, it is a vital sector, it's an important sector in terms of the Welsh economy, but it's also an important sector in respect of the growth and the development of Welsh law, and to that extent, the role of Welsh Government in this has been to work with and to facilitate the development of the law council for Wales, to give it support, but, of course, it will be a body that is independent of Government. But I have certainly given my commitment to giving any support I can to ensure that it is a success, because it is such an important development for Wales.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, will you make a statement on your Government's position on further devolution to Welsh regions and local authorities?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, our position on further devolution to local authorities is basically that we have a commission that is set up that will look at governance within Wales, the well-being of that governance, how it might move forward, how we might work to empower and support—I think the empowerment of communities and individuals within Wales, and I look forward, in due course, to the recommendations of the commission that has been established, which is going to be co-chaired by those I announced yesterday.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. In your statement yesterday, both your written statement and oral statement, there was no reference to the further devolution of powers from Cardiff Bay to Colwyn Bay and other places across the nation. Isn't it a fact that your Government, over the years, has been a Government that has centralised powers down here in Cardiff Bay, rather than actually distributing them to the local communities who ought to have been able to make decisions for themselves? The fact of the matter is that people in the part of the country where I live in north Wales feel as though they have a Government that is remote and out of touch with them. We have the worst waiting times in our hospitals, we have poorer local authority settlements, we have road projects that are in the deep freeze. These are not the devolution dividends that people were promised. When can we expect to see the Welsh Government take devolution to the regions of Wales and to local authorities seriously?

Mick Antoniw AC: I think it has always been the case that, within this Senedd, we have worked fairly in respect of across Wales and with a view to encompass all the views of the people of Wales. I do wonder whether you actually listened to the speech that I made yesterday, because in that speech and earlier statements, I'd always talked about how the ethos behind the commission is about the empowerment of people, it is about the empowerment of communities, and it seems to me you've totally disregarded what was said in order to, I think, make some cheap statement that is obviously one that has become part of the Conservative Party in Wales's mantra.

Darren Millar AC: I can assure you I listened very carefully to what you had yesterday, and I didn't hear the words, 'devolution to regions and local authorities' at all. You talk about the empowerment of people and communities, but isn't it the truth that you’re simply after a power grab from local authorities and a power grab from the UK Government and that really is what the independent commission on the constitutional future of Wales is all about?
Can I ask you to ensure that, as an important part of the work stream of the independent commission, because it is not in the remit that you published yesterday—the very broad remit, if I might say so—? Can I ask that you specifically ask them and task them with looking at where appropriate powers should lie, including whether there should be that further devolution to Welsh local authorities, which are much closer to the people on the ground that they serve than this remote Welsh Labour Government, which has been centralising powers since 1999?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, I think it's probably true that you did listen to my statement yesterday, but you certainly didn’t hear what I said. And I certainly wonder what your understanding is of the concept of empowerment of people and communities. And I wonder what your understanding is of the broad objectives that were set, which are really about the future of Wales and the enhancement of Welsh democracy and to consider those issues that would lead to the improvement and benefit of the people of Wales.
Now, if you think it’s appropriate in a commission to actually start telling the commission what its conclusions should be from day one—well, that’s not my concept of what a commission is. I believe it is vitally important that the commission has the flexibility and discretion to address those broad objectives. And if you’re saying to a commission to go out and to engage with the people of Wales, well, you have to listen to the people of Wales and what they actually say, rather than tell them that this is what you’ve already determined is important for them. Now, that may be the Conservative way of approaching this, but I don’t think it is the way that many others of us in this Senedd actually think is appropriate for a commission.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you, Llywydd. Counsel General, many of us here are very concerned about the significant increase in the number of Bills that the UK Government is trying to pass in devolved areas. Many on those benches will be familiar with the verse,
'He that hath ears, let him hear.'
Well, listen to this on the Conservative benches: in the fourth Senedd, there were eight legislative consent memoranda; in the sixth Senedd already, there are 14 LCMs. Some of the Bills, such as the Professional Qualifications Bill, give powers to Ministers to change primary legislation made in this place and to change the Government ofWales Act 2006. I'm sure you would agree with me, Counsel General, that the devolution settlement of our nation shouldn't be subject to the whim of a Tory Minister in Westminster. So what are you doing therefore to safeguard the Senedd from the Tory Government in Westminster, which is seeking to undermine our devolution? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, I think the Member has made his points very, very well, and they’re ones that, certainly, I’m very focused on. And perhaps to add to some of the examples that he gave, I would also express concern that some of those pieces of legislation that we will need to consider, because of their implications for devolution, actually go to the heart of our democracy and the democracy of the United Kingdom—the proposals in respect of judicial review, the worst of which were actually removed by the previous Lord Chancellor. And I have this great fear that, from indications of things that are being said by the new Lord Chancellor, there is an intention to reintroduce that; the issue of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Sentencing Bill, which would be a significant restriction on the right of civic protest. And we see now even the intention to introduce legislation to actually significantly restrict the issue of human rights within our legal system. These are all things that I think we regard as very, very significant and very important, whether it be democracy within Wales, or whether it be democracy within the United Kingdom.
What I can tell the Member is that, in terms of the legislative consent system, of course there are areas where—pieces of legislation—there will be potential overlaps and so on, and so the process is one that is important, in considering where there may be mutual benefits or not, or where there may be intrusions into devolved responsibilities. But the fact of the matter is that what is happening at the moment, I believe, is an onslaught on devolved responsibilities, it is an attempt to undermine devolved responsibilities, and I believe it actually undermines the democratic mandate that we have.
So, in considering all legislative consent memoranda, and to get an understanding of the global impact of them collectively, as well as those other processes, such as memoranda of understanding, the sort of despatch box agreements, is to evaluate the impact that they have in every respect in terms of the devolution settlement, with a view that legislation on Welsh matters should be pursued within Wales itself. Where there are areas of common interest, it's on the proviso, except in exceptional circumstances, that it does not undermine devolution or result in a transfer of powers from this place. It is a very, very difficult environment. I am hopeful that maybe the inter-governmental review, and the outcome of that, may improve the situation. But, as I said yesterday in discussing these matters, they do not provide the fundamental constitutional floor that I think is one that we actually need, and one that the commission we were referring to just earlier I think will no doubt consider.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr. I want to stay with the legislative consent motions. I want to quote some wise words to you, Counsel General. They were written in March 2021, by the then chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, in a letter to the environment Minister. These are the words:
'The arguments you have put forward to support the UK Parliament and UK Government legislating in devolved areas have often centred around issues of clarity and accessibility of the law or ensuring compatibility with policy in England. These are arguments in favour of not holding powers in this area at all and, in our view, they have no merit.
'We are concerned about the substantial and damaging cumulative impact of a succession of decisions that have been made which have resulted in the UK Parliament and UK Government legislating heavily on devolved matters within your portfolio.'
Well, I agree with those words, Counsel General, and of course they are your words. Now, do you still stand by those words, Counsel General, and, if so, why did you support giving consent to the Environment Bill last month, and what are your criteria for granting consent for future LCMs? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, firstly, I do stand by those words—they remain. I have always caveated, of course, when I've attended evidence sessions and so on, that there are, from time to time, areas where there may be benefits to Wales in pursuing a particular course of action, where there are either overlapping responsibilities—. Environment, of course, is one of those areas where there are major decisions that are taken at UK level that have direct impacts on Wales. And in all those approaches, we, I think, adopt the view of what is in the best interest of Wales, what is the best way of actually working to protect the environment, to develop where possible responsibilities within Wales that enable us to tackle the environment.
I understand the point that the Member is making, because sometimes these are very fine and difficult decisions, and there are, from time to time, circumstances where it is necessary, or where we give consent and perhaps it is not the most desirable circumstances in which we give consent, but, on weighing up all the circumstances, it is in the best interests of Wales to go down a particular road. They arise from time to time. But it does not move me away from those fundamental positions that you read out in that letter—ones that I still hold now—that one of our prime objectives is to preserve the integrity of devolution, and also to progress the integrity of devolution.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr. And finally, you've touched on my last question already—those comments by Dominic Raab to change the Human Rights Act 1998 to allow some sort of a mechanism so that Ministers can correct court judgments. Now, Counsel General, do you agree with me that Dominic Raab must have forgotten one of his first constitutional lectures at university, because this goes to the very heart of our parliamentary democracy? The Senedd and the Westminster Parliament have powers already to amend law. It is not for Ministers to overrule court judgment simply because they don't like it, or simply because it's inconvenient to them. Does the Counsel General agree with me that it's not their role to do it, that it's not the role of any Minister to correct court judgment, and, if this does go ahead, it's a clear breach of the principle of separation of power and the rule of law? What conversation have you had with law officers to address this? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank the Member for those particular points? They are absolutely valid points and they've been made by a number of organisations within the legal profession, and we can put it this way: Parliament without the framework of the rule of law is effectively a dictatorship that is elected every five years. The rule of law is what sets the framework in which the exercise of power takes place. Now, that has always been my understanding of the way in which Parliament works and the importance of the rule of law. What has been proposed with regard to judicial review is basically a building on what was being proposed in legislation a year or two back, which was to allow Governments to act unlawfully, to allow Governments to actually breach their international obligations.
So, it is an issue that I had intended to discuss with Robert Buckland when he was Lord Chancellor. Unfortunately, my meeting was the day after he was sacked—not that it had any connection, the two. [Laughter.] But it is very concerning now that the new Lord Chancellor is making comments that indicate a reversal, I think, of the decision that had been taken by Robert Buckland after consultation. I will, in due course, be meeting with the Lord Chancellor, and I will make these points, but I have to express that these proposals, in conjunction with all those other pieces of legislation, in my view, collectively, are a significant undermining of civil liberties and democracy.

Coal Tips

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: 3. What legal advice has the Counsel General given to the Welsh Ministers regarding responsibility for higher risk coal tips? OQ57039

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for the question, again on a very important subject. The safety of our communities is paramount and we continue to work at pace to address coal tip safety. The Coal Authority and local authorities undertake regular inspections on the higher-risk tips and ensure any other maintenance works are identified.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Now, last week, you'll be aware that more disused coal tips in Wales were classified as now being at higher risk. Numbers are up from 295 to 327. Now, whilst I welcome the fact that inspections on higher-risk tips have commenced, the Welsh Government are still arguing over where the extra £500 million to £600 million needed over the next 10 to 15 years is going to come from. The Minister for finance, in passing the buck, is using the line that, as a pre-devolution issue, we need the UK Government to share responsibility and prevent another landslip from happening. However, the Law Commission's 'Regulating Coal Tip Safety in Wales' consultation paper states:
'In our provisional view coal tip safety falls within devolved competence.... Matters relating to the environment, flood risk management and land drainage are not reserved.'
So, do you agree with the view of the Law Commission that coal tip safety does fall within this devolved administration, and when will you be advising Ministers that they really do need to start looking at the funds to make these coal tips safe? Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank you for that interesting supplementary question and statement? You've very selectively chosen from the Law Commission report, because there is far more detail about the issues of complexity, about the complexity of law and the confusion of law since the privatisation of the coal industry and all the consequences since then, from the National Coal Board to British Coal, through the 1994 Act and then through to the Coal Authority now.
Perhaps in answer to that, I should take you back to your actual question, which was a question about the advice that's given with regard to responsibility for higher-risk coal tips. And, of course, the term 'responsibility' has a very broad understanding. There are various forms of responsibility, and I believe the UK Government has a responsibility—an ethical responsibility. I think it has a moral responsibility, and I believe it has a political and potentially a legal responsibility in the coal tips that exist. And I live in a constituency that has quite a number of these particular coal tips.
Can I say, I think it is an absolute disgrace that the UK Government continues not to accept that this issue of coal tip legacy is a pre-devolution issue aggravated by climate change? And I hear the sort of weasel words from the UK Government about this, and that you are repeating today, and I have to say to you, what message do you think you are giving to the people of the Valleys of south Wales, the people where these coal tips exist in those communities, with the total abrogation of any liability—ethical, moral or political—in respect of that? Now, the First Minister mentioned yesterday that this was one of key two issues that he raised with the Prime Minister. And I have to say, instead of this highly sensitive matter being a subject of contention, it ought to be a defining example of how the UK Government can work with us to develop effective benefits from inter-governmental working, particularly so in the context of the UK hosting COP26.
If the UK Government does not agree to a funding programme, we are going to have to find £600 million from budgets over the next 10 to 15 years—money that has come to us to build hospitals, to build roads, to build schools, and to do many other things. And I have to say to you, if there was ever an opportunity for a UK Government to be able to demonstrate to the people of Wales the dividend that comes with being in the United Kingdom, joint working with us on coal tips would surely be it. That is the test, I think, you should be taking back to your Government in Westminster, and, I think, the people of south Wales, the people who live in the communities where these coal tips are, will be listening very, very carefully to the response that comes from the UK Government on this moral, ethical and political issue.

Delyth Jewell AC: Tomorrow will mark 55 years since the coal tip above Aberfan collapsed and killed a school full of children and teachers, and, in the 55 years since, the task of removing other coal tips from our mountainsides is still unfinished. I note that some have asked the Welsh Government to carry the burden of making these tips safe, a burden that should have been carried by Westminster decades ago. Counsel General, I'd instead ask you whether you will renew your calls on the UK Government to foot this bill of betrayal, since, after all, coal used to be known as black gold. The almost unimaginable wealth was taken from Wales, and we were left with the dust, the filth and catastrophe. Why should Wales have to pay to clear up the mess and the horror left behind?

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank the Member for that further supplementary comment? I agree, and I believe that if the UK Government does not honour its obligations to the people in the mining communities who live with these coal tips, and accept the responsibility that is there, it will be an indication of yet another betrayal by the UK Conservative Government.

Question 4, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I'm withdrawing this question, please.

Is there any reason for withdrawing it at this late stage?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: It's a very sensitive topic—something's arisen since. So, I won't be asking it, if that's okay.

Okay. You've intrigued us with that reason. I must say that it's not good practice to be withdrawing a question at such a late stage, especially when you're in the Chamber at that point.

Question 4 [OQ57049] not asked.

Question 5, Rhys ab Owen.

The Law Council of Wales's Independence

Rhys ab Owen AS: 5. What steps has the Counsel General taken to ensure the law council of Wales's independence from Government? OQ57036

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question on the law council of Wales. We have been clear from the outset that it is essential the law council is fully independent of Government. While we have facilitated its inception, the Welsh Government will not be a member of the council, and it will be for the council to determine its constitution and its working arrangements.

Rhys ab Owen AS: I welcome the establishment of the law council of Wales. I think there's great potential there. As you mentioned earlier, a strong and sustainable legal sector in Wales is very important for several different reasons. It's been shown during the COVID pandemic how important technology is. And, in the legal sector, we haven't always been very good with technology, as you know, Counsel General. When I started in practice, several lawyers had never touched a computer, and the fax machine was used until very, very recently. Does the Counsel General agree with me that the law council should prioritise digital innovation and technical needs assessment as part of its work programme? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the supplementary question. I think, by my understanding, there are still quite a few lawyers around who have never touched a computer, but I'm sure that changes with time.
I think you're absolutely right—we're already beginning to have the experience of the digital developments in terms of giving evidence, in terms of the transmission of evidence, digital use in the way in which documents are made available and accessible within courts and so on. My big concern—and it's an issue that I discussed when I visited the Cardiff Civil Justice Centre recently, and it's an issue I've discussed with others and will have in other discussions in due course with members of the judiciary—is the issue of accessibility and equality that emerges from it, because it's one thing for the lawyers to have their systems well digitised, but it's also, though, a question of ensuring that people have access to the courts, and that they also have the right, I think, to face-to-face court hearings, rather than digital ones, et cetera.
There may be circumstances in terms of how that is actually managed. But what is very clear at the moment is that, with the number of courts that have been closed, against the wishes of this Senedd, and I believe without any proper and adequate consultation processes, we now have large sections of many communities in south Wales that have very limited access. And they're being told that, of course, the way forward is digital access. Well, certainly in my constituency, and I know it's the same in other similar constituencies in south Wales and, I'm sure, many other areas, when you've got between 20 and 30 per cent of the population not actually having access, or regular access, to a computer, there are some serious equality issues that have to be raised.
There is no doubt, though, that there are opportunities in that. Just as we see opportunities arise within the provision of health services, it's the same with legal services. I remember the absolute horror when we were told we could have telephone hearings with district judges, and the shock and awe that that statement had. And, of course, within a matter of weeks, it had actually become something totally normal. Well, of course, we go much further than that, but of course it does require investment. Now, there are proposals and there is money that's been made available for that investment, but I think we have to ensure that it's tied in with the modernisation of the courts and on a very clear equality agenda. And that is an agenda that I intend to raise at every opportunity that I have.

The UK Government's Legislative Programme

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 6. What assessment has the Welsh Government has the made of the extent to which the UK Government's legislative programme touches on devolved areas? OQ57065

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. The cumulative impact of current UK Government Bills on the devolution settlement is very concerning. The Welsh Government is working with the UK Government to seek changes to those Bills that do not respect devolution.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you for that response. As you know, there's been a substantial increase in the number of LCMs this term. These laws won't be made bilingually, they won't be accessible and, even worse, they won't be fully scrutinised by this Senedd. So, what discussions have you had with the UK Government and your fellow Ministers here to ensure that this increase in LCMs doesn't continue?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, wherever UK Government legislation arises that has an impact on devolution or has a connection with devolved responsibilities, the issue of laying legislative consent memoranda arises. And, of course, these are an obligation; they're not a choice. I think the question that the Member rightly I think is getting at, though, is of course the nature of that legislation and the extent to which it intrudes or undermines the devolved responsibilities. And, of course, it also raises, doesn't it, the issue of the impact of the Sewel convention, which has been under much strain.
I will perhaps reiterate some of the points that have already been made, and one is that we have laid LCMs in relation to 14 bills. For seven of those bills, we have indicated that we are not able to recommend consent. We do carry on working with the UK Government in respect of making changes that might enable consent to be given. Those discussions occur between me and my counterpart in the UK Government. They also occur in connection with individual Ministers and legislation in their particular portfolios, and, of course, there is regular ongoing engagement between the officials of the Governments of the four nations of the United Kingdom.
Perhaps to repeat, the approach we have, which is our general principle, is that primary legislation within the Senedd's competence should be made and amended by the Senedd. We do, from time to time, have to take a pragmatic approach to using UK Government legislation to achieve our policy objectives where the opportunity to do so arises, and where it is sensible and advantageous to do so and it is in the interest of the people of Wales to do so.

Alun Davies AC: But it's no accident, is it, Counsel General—I'm very grateful to Mabon ap Gwynfor for raising this absolutely important subject this afternoon—that we've seen a succession of LCMs that have no need for legislative consent, except that the UK Government want to erode the powers of this place, want to erode the competence of Welsh democracy, and want to ensure that our freedom to legislate is constrained as much as they're able to do so without simply legislating this place out of existence? And does this again ensure that there is more justification than ever for the statement you made yesterday on a constitutional convention to ensure that we have a constitution that we can be sure of? We've already seen changes to the settlement since we were elected six months ago. It's an intolerable intrusion on our democracy, and what we need to be able to do is to have a settlement that strengthens Welsh democracy and does not undermine Welsh democracy.

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for those comments and I think he's absolutely right; it is no accident, in my view. When you look at the cumulative effect and the combination of legislation in particular areas, it seems to me there is a concerted strategy. I think it's a strategy that arises from the fact that we have a Government that basically dislikes devolution and thinks devolution was a mistake. What message does—[Interruption.] What message—[Interruption.] What message—? Well, to whoever says, 'What rubbish, we would only have to quote back to him the comments of the Prime Minister that were made and have been well published, and that he is well aware of. I think the difficulty comes from not only believing that devolution was a mistake—

Allow the Minister to carry on with his response, please, in some quiet.

Mick Antoniw AC: —not only that devolution was a mistake, but, actually, where you have a Government that fails to recognise the actual strength that comes from the decentralisation of power and the empowerment of people and communities, and how devolution is good for democracy, and it is a pity that we currently have a Prime Minister who has not only made those comments, but has never properly retracted those comments either. I take that to mean that he stands by those comments, and those are the comments that are guidance that go out to the remaining members of the Cabinet.

The Commission on Justice in Wales

Jack Sargeant AC: 7. Will the Counsel General make a statement on the Government's response to the recommendations made by the Commission on Justice in Wales? OQ57046

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for his question. I published a written statement on justice on 30 September, and, just over 10 days ago, I had the privilege of addressing delegates at the Legal Wales conference, during which I reaffirmed our commitment to pursue the case for the devolution of justice and policing.

Jack Sargeant AC: I thank the Counsel General for that answer, and I'm sure Members will agree with me right across the benches in this Chamber that cuts to legal aid by the UK Government mean it is harder for ordinary people to access justice. I'm sure Members from right across the Chamber agree with me that access to justice should not just be for the wealthy. The Welsh Government does fund organisations to provide legal advice, and this really is a lifeline to many, and it is vital that that money spent is done so efficiently. Now, Counsel General, the 'Justice in Wales for the People of Wales' report recommended that, and I quote:
'The funding for legal aid and for the third sector providing advice and assistance should be brought together in Wales to form a single fund under the strategic direction of an independent body'.
Counsel General, do you agree with that recommendation and, if so, how quickly can we implement this recommendation?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for that and, yes, I do agree with the recommendation. Of course, the recommendation was made within the context of the further devolution of justice. I'd also perhaps reaffirm the comments that you made with regard to the impact of cuts to legal aid. This is something I've raised nearly every time I've had meetings with relevant judiciary and law officers. It's a matter that is regularly raised in this particular Chamber, because we have, effectively, I believe, a two-tier justice system now: a justice system for those who can afford it and very little justice for those who can't.
We as a Welsh Government have stepped in with resources that were not intended for this in terms of the single advice fund that the Minister for Social Justice was referring to earlier, how important that is, but it is not a substitute for a properly funded justice system and a properly funded legal aid system. I hope, though, that the single advice fund and the investment that we are making into that support provides the base for the establishment eventually of a Welsh legal aid fund.
I think it is also worth referring to the comments that have been made recently by the previous Lord Chancellor, Robert Buckland, who basically talked about the way in which justice has been underinvested for decades, and I agree with that and I think the cuts in respect of legal aid were almost the worst example of that. But there is no doubt that there has been a long-term failure to evaluate the importance of the justice system and that the justice system is ultimately about the empowerment of people in our communities. So, I think it is another matter that comes back to a point that was made earlier in terms of the commission and the need for the review that is likely to be taking place.

Voter Identification

Jane Dodds AS: 8. What are the Welsh Government's plans in relation to the use of voter identification in Wales? OQ57067

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank Jane Dodds for her question. The Welsh Government is committed to inclusive and accessible voting in Senedd and local government elections, and wants to encourage participation rather than to restrict it. We will therefore not be introducing voter ID measures in Wales for devolved elections.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you so much, Counsel General, I'm very pleased to hear that because I, like you, am incredibly concerned at the Conservative Government's proposals in Westminster to pursue voter identification for reserved elections. Whilst I'm not going to rehearse the arguments for and against today, I remain totally opposed to these discriminatory measures. What I am concerned about, though, is that in a Welsh context these measures may create confusion about the need to carry photo ID to the polling stations for all elections in the United Kingdom, despite devolved and local elections in Wales retaining the much fairer system. So, could I ask you what plans the Welsh Government intends to put in place to mitigate the potential public confusion on this issue? Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. I've already indicated, I think, in the past the need for and my desire for and belief that we will have an electoral reform Bill within the term of this Senedd, the purpose of which will be to modernise our electoral system to improve accessibility, to learn from the lessons that exist internationally that can provide access to people, whether it be people with disability or in general, that reflects the modern society we live in.
I have to say that I have not seen any substantive evidential basis that would justify the introduction of ID cards. I believe it is an idea that has come from America. It is part of an agenda that is about restricting accessibility of voting for some of the poorer and most vulnerable within our communities. Now, when I say there's no evidential base, I'll give you an example from the data from the Electoral Commission: in 2019, across the UK, with the millions and millions of votes that were cast, there were a total of 595 cases of alleged electoral fraud investigated by the police. Only 142 of those were categorised under a voting category. One individual was convicted for using someone else's vote at a polling station, one individual received a caution for the same reason, and in Wales, there were 14 cases of alleged electoral fraud investigated by Welsh police forces in 2019, with only six of them relating to voting.
The Welsh Government's position is that we want to make elections as open and as accessible as possible. We want to find new ways to engage with voters to make sure they have every opportunity to participate in the democratic process, and as I've said, we intend to bring forward our own proposals for how to achieve this later in the sixth Senedd.

I thank the Counsel General.

3. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change: Update on the Metro

The next item, therefore, is the statement by the Deputy Minister for Climate Change on the metro, and I call on the Deputy Minister to make his statement.

Lee Waters AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd.The climate emergency demands we change the way we travel. Seventeen per cent of Welsh carbon emissions are generated by transport, and as the UK Climate Change Committee makes clear, simply switching to electric cars will not meet the 2050 net zero target. We need to cut the number of journeys and get people to switch to more sustainable forms of transport too.
We fully recognise that this is not going to be easy. For some 70 years transport policy in the UK has favoured car travel over public transport, and as a result it is now easier for most people to hop in the car than it is to plan a journey using more sustainable forms of transport. That has to change. But for that to happen, we have to make the right thing to do the easiest thing to do.
Our Wales transport strategy sets out the steps we need to make to meet our target of 45 per cent of journeys by public transport or active travel by 2040. We are aiming to publish a new bus strategy around the end of this year, and a White Paper to follow, and a bus reform Bill this Senedd term.
Our active travel investment for short local trips is now the highest per head in the UK, and we are working with councils to identify safe local networks that will encourage people to leave the car at home and walk and cycle instead. Ten per cent of car journeys are under 1 mile in length, and many of those trips could be made on foot or by bike.
For medium and long-term journeys, rail has an important part to play. We need to see the £5 billion shortfall in rail investment from the UK Government made up in order to modernise our network. For our part, we have taken the Wales and borders franchise under public control and are working hard to stabilise it after the collapse in passenger numbers during COVID. As we plan the rail recovery, we must do it in tandem with the other sustainable modes, so that people can make their whole journey, door to door, by sustainable transport.
The Burns commission in south-east Wales has set a blueprint for how that can be done, and we want to scale that approach to other parts of Wales. In particular, I want to emulate the model where the Welsh Government and Transport for Wales have formed a single joint delivery unit with the local authorities, and an independent delivery board set up to drive performance and ensure progress. I’m pleased that Simon Gibson and Dr Lynn Sloman, both noted for their delivery focus, are serving as chair and vice-chair of the delivery board in south-east Wales.
Llywydd, I can announce that I have tasked my officials with creating a similar collaborative approach in north Wales too. We will create a north Wales metro delivery board, and I will be advertising for an independent chair and vice-chair to make sure we are being as ambitious as possible and to hold delivery partners to account, ourselves included. I would also like to see this model of partnership, co-design and shared leadership adopted by the four corporate joint committees across Wales as they take up their responsibility for regional transport planning over the course of this Senedd term.
The evidence from around the world suggests that if you want people to use public transport, it needs to be easy to use. In the parlance, it needs to 'turn up and go', and that's the design principle at the heart of our metro programme: frequent, seamless services connecting people with key destinations, and we've committed over £1 billion to our three metro programmes. Each is in different stages of development and we are today publishing updated maps showing the current ambition.
In the south-east, significant construction work is already under way, and in the next few years we'll increasingly see physical evidence of one of the most ambitious infrastructure projects to have taken place in Wales in modern times. A new bus station right next to the main train station is going up in Cardiff. Work has been going on over the summer on the core Valleys line to prepare it for the introduction of new tram trains. By 2024, there will be new tram trains offering fast turn-up-and-go services at around 50 stations on the Welsh Government's network, as well as new services being planned to double the frequency on the Ebbw Vale line through the Vale of Glamorgan, and to Maesteg.
In north Wales, we've put in place the foundations for a significantly improved rail and bus service and active travel through our £50 million of Welsh Government funding announcement. I recently saw for myself the plans at Wrexham General station to make it easier to change between rail and bus, helping connections between the north Wales coast and the more frequent Borderlands line services from next year at Shotton, alongside a new station at Deeside industrial park.
We've asked Transport for Wales to take on the development of the Swansea bay and west Wales metro to assist the local authorities in that area. This is at the earliest stage of development of the three metro key schemes, and I'm keen to increase the pace and the ambition for public transport in this part of Wales. Around £8 million has been allocated this year to deliver active travel and public transport schemes to support the Swansea bay metro programme. Preliminary work is being carried out to develop a potential hydrogen bus pilot in Swansea bay and Pembrokeshire, and new interchanges, including a new station at St Clears delivered by Transport for Wales, which will be in place by 2024, will offer real improvements to public transport in the area.
I've also recently commissioned work to develop a new programme for mid Wales to examine how our approach to the metros can be applied in this region and our more rural areas across the whole of Wales. We must learn from Germany and Switzerland that it's perfectly possible to have an effective public transport system in rural areas. It'll require a different approach to urban Wales, but it's absolutely doable with commitment. Car clubs and electric bikes will have a major role to play, as will demand-responsive transport, and in pilots across Wales, our Fflecsi service is offering access to public transport where previously there was none, opening up new opportunities for more people. We are now trialling Fflecsi in 11 areas, where we are seeing significant passenger growth and it has now been used for over 100,000 journeys. And we're committed to learn from it and to scale it.
Llywydd, delivering our metros is one of the most ambitious and complex programmes ever undertaken by the Welsh Government. The maps published today illustrate our emerging programmes. We have the capability, the expertise, the experience and the desire in Wales to progress at pace. In fact, we will not achieve our net zero ambitions if we don't. Diolch.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

I have a large number of people who wish to speak, and I therefore ask everyone to keep within their time allocation so that we can get as many in as possible, please. And I'm sure the Deputy Minister will also be succinct in his answers to the questions.

Conservative spokesperson, Natasha Asghar.

Natasha Asghar AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Firstly, I thank the Deputy Minister for his statement today. I wish to put on record that the Welsh Conservatives do fully support the metro projects across Wales, but I do want to also just put in there that we don't think it's going to be a fully fledged solution to the environmental crisis. We do share your hope that it'll make it easier for people to use their cars less and use public transport more. However, we do have concerns that your Government is relying too much on the metro as an immediate transport solution for south Wales. I know you mentioned £750 million was being spent on south Wales and, as someone from south Wales, that's great, but just in comparison, £50 million for north Wales is a bit of a kick in the teeth for those people who live in north Wales.
Deputy Minister, I just want to give you an example. If I fall and trip right now and break my hand, a plaster will literally only help me to a certain point, but if I actually need a cast to resolve the issue that I have at hand, that's what we need here in Wales. We need a cast, something that's actually going to solve the problemof transport.Therefore, it's my belief that the economic benefits derived from the metro will be offset by the damage done by your failure to invest in improving our roads. As the planning inspector of the proposed M4 relief road said in 2019, if the south Wales metro were created overnight, it would only alleviate traffic by 5.9 per cent. So, I'd like to know: have your figures changed since then?
Your decision to freeze all new road building has been met with widespread dismay by businesses in Wales. The Road Haulage Association has criticised the move and said that Wales needs a fit-for-purpose road network to boost trade. You mentioned previously in a statement that one out of five people do not have access to a car. This is not me being difficult, but I'd very much like to know where you got the figure from, because my main concern is those four out of five that we haven't discussed and mentioned. So, Deputy Minister, do you feel that the south Wales metro may not actually solve all the transport problems of south Wales, and that we need an efficient, modern road infrastructure as well, side by side?
Your comments on new and improved bus services are welcomed by myself and many of my colleagues, but merely highlight the neglect and decline in bus services that has taken place under the Welsh Labour Government. Under your Government, the number of local bus journeys has fallen from 100 million in 2016-17 to 89 million in 2019-20. So, how will you deliver this promised increase in bus services? Six years ago, Wales replaced the bus service operators grant with the bus services support grant, with funding set at £25 million. It is shocking, therefore, that this fixed pot of £25 million has not changed since the BSSG inception. So, how will you deliver this promised increase in bus services when funding per passenger is inadequate and compares poorly with that provided for rail passengers?
I sincerely, from every ounce of my soul, welcome your comments on a new integrated ticketing system and flexible fare options, but can you advise what is the present position regarding my call for an all-Wales travel card, which received a positive response from the First Minister? Having spoken to those behind the Oyster card in London, we already have the system in place here in Wales and have the infrastructure to provide that all-important all-Wales travel card. I love the idea of having a debit card system here. The tap-and-go system would be fantastic for so many people across the board, but it would cost a lot of money and time. Do we have that time, Deputy Minister?
Finally, Minister, I agree that Wales needs new and improved train stations, and have supported calls for one at Magor and Undy.I'd like to know what discussions have you had specifically, or intend to have, with the UK Secretary of State for Transport, Grant Shapps, to make this a reality and deliver these vital links in the Welsh network chain right now. Thank you very much.

Lee Waters AC: There was a series of questions there, and I'm mindful of the Deputy Llywydd's plea to keep the answers short, so I will do my best.
I'm getting a little tired of sharing platforms with Conservative spokespeople who call for us to take bold action on climate change and then the next day stand up in the Senedd and demand we spend billions of pounds on roads programmes. Those two things are not compatible, so how you explain that disconnect, I don't understand, because it's complete hypocrisy. That's what it is. It's hypocrisy. You cannot do both things at the same time. Now, you want us to spend £2 billion on a motorway through Newport, which, as we know, would increase traffic and car use, not decrease it as the UK Climate Change Committee tells us we need to do. Your figures on the metro are out of date, because the approach of the Burns commission has shown that an integrated approach of bus, rail and active travel, focused around the city of Newport, can achieve modal shift. It can achieve the same impact as the road for half the price.
You ask where we get the figures of 20 per cent of people not having a car. The answer is quite simple: the census. These aren't contested figures. These are well-established figures. In fact, additional figures from TfW show that 80 per cent of bus users don't have an alternative. So, investing in public transport is as much a social justice case as it is a climate change case.
The suggestion of the all-Wales travel card is an attractive one, but it simply can't be achieved with the fragmented, privatised system that her party has left us as a legacy, and that's why we're taking through the bus modernisation Bill. She may curse and say it's inconvenient that I point out the Conservative record on public transport, but we are living with the legacy of it 40 years on. The privatisation of the bus service was a disaster, and it makes it nigh on impossible to introduce the sort of changes we've seen in London, because in London the bus service was kept regulated in public ownership. That was not—[Interruption.]

Can the Deputy Minister hold on a second? Members should listen to the answer. You've raised questions; please listen to the answer. And Government backbenchers, also listen to the answer, please. Deputy Minister.

Lee Waters AC: In terms of the different levels of investment in different parts of Wales, as I made clear, we are in different stages of development. The south Wales metro has been in gestation for a very long time. We now need to make sure that it's matched across the rest of Wales. I hope she would have welcomed the announcement we made today of a delivery board for north Wales, with an independent chair, to challenge us all—local authorities, Welsh Government and Transport for Wales—to increase our ambition and increase our pace. Because, if, unlike her, I am sincere in delivering our net-zero commitments, we do need to shift resources from road building to public transport, and that's why we announced the roads review.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Delyth Jewell.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Minister, for your statement. I wanted to ask you in the first instance about public confidence in using public transport as a result of COVID. Research by Transport Focus shows that there's a clear difference between those who have been using public transport during the pandemic or recently and those who have not. The latter group are much more concerned about using transport again and they want to make sure that they feel confident that the transport provision is clean, is safe and is ready for use. It's clear from what you've been saying, and what we all know, that there needs to be a modal shift in the sector to achieve net zero, but still large numbers of people continue to be concerned about their safety. So, what steps will you and the Welsh Government take to inspire and increase travellers' confidence to boost the use of public transport, especially for the metro?

Delyth Jewell AC: I also wanted to ask about accessibility, Minister, because obviously, we need to make it easier for people to actually use public transport. I note that you said that we need to make the right thing to do the easy thing to do. I welcome that, and I'd add to it as well: the safe thing to do. So, as well as making sure that we learn from what Sustrans say in terms of making sure that the first mile and the last mile are connected, what steps are you and the Government looking at and planning for in terms of making sure that walkways are well lit, that it is accessible and feels safe for women walking on their own, and older people who might feel nervous about falling as well if walkways aren't well lit—that kind of thing? How are you taking into consideration those areas?
Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm very aware of time, so I'll just ask one final question. Turning to decarbonisation and connectivity, you said, Minster, in your response to the Conservatives just now that we have a fragmented and privatised system, which is the legacy of how Westminster has left us in terms of public transport. There isn't a comprehensive rail network connecting the different parts of Wales, and north-south journeys have to be made through England. One of the major reasons for this is that not all responsibility for rail is devolved. So, could I ask you how you aim to address barriers to connectivity in terms of, yes, electrification, the grid limitations, capacity, things that were raised in our debate last week, but as well as that, the limited powers over rail infrastructure that we currently have, so that a fully decarbonised, connected transport network can become a reality?

Lee Waters AC: Thank you. There were number of questions. Passenger demand is starting to return to the rail service. It's now at 66 per cent of pre-pandemic levels, which, clearly, is significantly lower, but it's increasing all the time and we are maintaining deep cleaning at stations and on trains. We've seen this trend right across the world, where post-pandemic confidence using mass transit is reduced, and that's not unexpected. It's one of the reasons why we're keeping support for the rail and bus industry at the levels we have done. But obviously, we want to taper that down as demand increases. So, we, frankly, have to feel our way. We're in an unprecedented public health crisis and we don't know what the future holds.
We are currently at alert level 0 and that allows public transport use, but we are encouraging social distancing. I do get very concerning reports of services where there is overcrowding and people aren't wearing masks and that is clearly shaking public confidence. But the law is clear: we want people to wear masks. We do have enforcement measures in place and we, each of us, have a responsibility to follow the law and follow public health advice. But clearly, we're in an incredibly difficult and unprecedented situation and we are monitoring it on a weekly basis.
In terms of the point about rail powers and barriers to connectivity, this is clearly a really important point. We want rail powers to be devolved. The UK Government are not engaging in that conversation. In fact, they're barely engaging in any conversation at all. Natasha Asghar asked me when I met Grant Shapps; I've failed to get an audience with Mr Shapps, he won't meet with us. So, there is definitely a disconnect here, which is very concerning for us achieving the ambitions we want. And as I said in the statement, we remain £5 billion short in the investment we need for rail infrastructure. So, it is an impediment on us achieving our net-zero ambitions, for sure, and I raised this with Sir Peter Hendy, the chair of Network Rail, recently. Clearly, these are political decisions by the UK Westminster Government; they talk of levelling up, but they don't deliverlevelling up, and until they do, we will have these barriers that Delyth Jewell outlined. In the meantime, we have to try and address them with other things that we do have in our control, namely bus, in particular. That's why we are developing our bus strategy at the end of this year.

John Griffiths AC: On the alignment, Minister, between the metro and the delivery board for the Burns commission, I wonder if you could say a little bit more about how that is going to be ensured and achieved. We do have quite a few players involved, as you said. There's the Welsh Government, Transport for Wales, the local authorities, and then the delivery board, to deliver on the Burns commission strategy on behalf of the partners and with the partners.
There's the metro work, and there are the corporate joint committees. It's quite a task, I think, to make sure that there is good communication and joint ownership and vision that translates into actual measures on the ground. So, I wonder if you could say a little bit more about the process that's going to ensure that we do see effective delivery in that sort of scenario with that sort of set-up.
In terms of active travel, Minister, I think that it's fair to say that, sometimes, local authorities have struggled in terms of their own internal capacity to make sure that we get—

Will the Member conclude now?

John Griffiths AC: Certainly—that we get the right quality and effectiveness. So, I wonder if you could say a little bit about how the Welsh Government, with partners, will ensure that that's achieved.

Lee Waters AC: Absolutely. I think that those are both strands of the same argument. Capacity and capability within local authorities is a real delivery constraint. That's why it's essential that local authorities work through the corporate joint committees to pool their resources. Then, we'll work alongside them, through Transport for Wales. James Price has said, as chief executive, that he wants TfW to be the servant of local authorities—to be the technical brain for them; that the accountability in decision making is local, but that we pool the delivery capability. I think that that is a sensible model.
As I say, I'm really encouraged by the Newport example. Through that Burns delivery plan, we are, I think, sketching out what can be applied to the rest of Wales. The Welsh Government has got a huge amount of work going on behind the scenes, which you won't have seen the result of yet. That is one of the problems that we have with the whole metro development. The lag between the planning and the technical work and the delivery is long, and people are tired of hearing the promises because they don't see anything for it.
But, we are definitely going to see a change with that for the south Wales metro in the coming year or so, and I think that we will see that in Newport too. The Welsh Government and the council and TfW are working very closely as one unit to design schemes, put them in for funding and then work on the delivery. So, I'm confident that the model is working, and we hope to scale it.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The people of Cardiff are certainly delighted that they are going to get their bus station back, because it has been a long road. So, that is going to be very exciting. Thank you for releasing these maps, because it is really useful to see what your priorities are up until 2029.
The Burns report is framed around using two of the four train tracks between Newport and Cardiff and beyond as the spine of the south-east Wales metro, yet I can't see anything around that on your map. I am particularly concerned about this because the bi-mode trains have been revealed as being seriously polluting by the Rail Safety and Standards Board. Passengers are imbibing air that is worse than on a busy urban roadside location. So, that's really bad news for Cardiff and for all the passengers who are going west.
So, is it that you have almost had to give up on the UK Government? Four years after cancelling—

Can the Member conclude now, please?

Jenny Rathbone AC: —the electrification of the line to Swansea, they still haven't come up with their initial assessment of how they are going to improve the Wales rail infrastructure. Is there anything that you can say to tell us that that is not going to be a hole in the plans from the Burns report?

Lee Waters AC: [Inaudible.]—capture everything that's going on, that's for sure. We do have bids in to the Department for Transport for work to deliver on the Burns report. We've been given encouraging noises when I've met with Ministers, but have yet to have any confirmation that we are going to get the funding. Without the funding, it's not going to be possible to deliver on the Burns report and address the congestion. So, on the one hand, they say they want to build a road, and Boris Johnson chastises us for not having built the road. We've come up with an alternative, come up with a former Treasury Permanent Secretary, endorsed by the chair of Network Rail, and the UK Government is failing to fund it. So, we are still hopeful that that will come forward, but I have nothing to report yet. But the Member is absolutely right that, without it, we're not going to be able to take polluting traffic off the roads.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for bringing forward this statement today. It is of course a very timely statement. Just a couple of weeks ago, I raised a question with you regarding the north Wales metro, in the Chamber, and I was really pleased to hear you agree with me that there should be urgency around the delivery of the metro in north Wales. And in light of this, I certainly welcome some further focus in my region, with the creation of a north Wales metro delivery board, which you've announced here today. I am disappointed, though, to not hear anything about an expanded proposal for north Wales. The current metro proposal for the region stops at Rhyl. Now, whilst Rhyl is a wonderful destination, the rest of north Wales needs a clearly supported strategy to mitigate current pressures for those living in the region, alongside our 26 million annual visitors, whilst also delivering a solution that contributes to the climate change challenge. So, Deputy Minister, how will you task this north Wales metro delivery board to deliver a north Wales metro that truly serves the region? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Well I know that, as a former leader of a local authority in north Wales, Sam Rowlands will fully value the importance of local leadership, and the role that local authorities have in shaping these proposals. And that's why I think it's important to create this joint delivery mechanism, both for operational and for strategic means, so we can together increase the ambition. I met with the cabinet members from the north Wales economic ambition board recently, and put this challenge to them. I think there's still a focus with some on road-based schemes, but the message needs to get through that we need to shift our focus here. Again, there is a disconnect between, on the one hand, calling for us to meet net zero, and on the other hand being wedded to a way of thinking that is out of line with that vision. So, I'm very keen that we start looking seriously at the role that public transport can play as the workhorse of the transport system, and that we work closely with north Wales local authorities to design what's going to be right for their communities, so we can give people realistic alternatives to the car.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Minister, you'll know where I'll be coming to at my concluding point on this, but can I just first of all say, I think this map, the document, the statement today shows that Welsh Government is serious about changing the whole conversation about shifting towards active travel, public transport—as you just described it: the workhorse of the way we travel about our communities, get to work, get to social events, and so on? And it does require us to put our political goodwill behind this as well, and to be consistent in arguing the case for this, so that people can have accessible, affordable, regular, frequent, universal ticketing, that they can hop from bus to bike and on to train, and get to the places they need to go, and design the communities around it.
But, Minister, you know where I'm coming. Maesteg is mentioned in the document, Maesteg is on the maps as well, in the emerging proposals up to 2029. I've been campaigning on this now for nearly a decade—not just since the time I was in the Senedd. Minister, will you meet with me, and local authority representatives, to discuss in further detail the proposals for Maesteg, so we can give our constituents timelines about when we'll deliver this? Diolch yn fawr iawn, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Lee Waters AC: Naturally, I'm delighted to meet with the Member, and his local authority colleagues, to discuss the five options that we are currently looking at to increase the frequency of services on the Maesteg line as part of the phase 2 WelTAGprocess, which will be completed this financial year. All of the options being assessed include integrated transport hubs at Bridgend and Ewenny Road, and will consider the appropriate type of rolling stock for providing increased frequency of services. And I look forward to working with him to go through the detail of that.

Alun Davies AC: Minister, like others, I very much welcome both the statement and the scale of the ambition from the Welsh Government today. The last question took you to Maesteg; I'm going to take you to Ebbw Vale and Abertillery, and that will be no surprise to you at all. Could you ensure that the Ebbw Valley line is treated with equality in terms of the services and investment? We have not seen the devolution of the Ebbw Valley line, and we've seen the UK Government starve the Ebbw Valley line of investment, and I'm grateful to the Welsh Government for stepping in and filling the responsibility that is held by the UK Government on that. But we need equality of services and a timeline for development of new services. We also need links to the Grange. We've debated and discussed many times in this place over the years. If the Welsh Government is serious about this ambition, it cannot be making investments as large as the Grange, and then not ensuring there are public transport links to the Grange from across the area served by it, including Blaenau Gwent.
And my final point is in terms of the bus strategy and the Bill. I understood that this Bill would be brought forward in the first year of this Senedd, and so, it would be useful, I think, for Members to understand why there appears to be something of a delay because we need bus services re-regulated today. We are seeing the impact of that misguided Thatcherite policy today in Blaenau Gwent. The people of Blaenau Gwent want control of their buses back. Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, there is not a Bill that is in the offing of the legislative programme that different campaigners don't want done in the first year of this Senedd term, and clearly we can't do them all in the first year of this Senedd term. So, the First Minister and the Counsel General are currently looking at the best way to manage that logjam. I would say that the pause does allow us a chance to be more ambitious, and we are now working with the local authorities and operators to see if we can design a bus Bill that is going to be more radical and more effective than the one that we previously had conceived. So, I think this is an exciting opportunity for us to up our ambition, and that is something we are definitely committed to do.
In terms of the Grange, I think the Grange is a case study of something we need to learn really and not allow this to happen again, and that's why I said in the statement why it's so important for the CJCs and the local authorities to come together and take their responsibilities seriously so they can plan transport alongside other services, so we're not creating out-of-town developments that aren't served by public transport. And, of course, in this instance, it's the Welsh Government itself—it's the NHS planning that is to blame for creating a large trip-generating site away from public transport networks. And never again I think we should say that this be allowed to happen.
And, so, I'm frustrated that we haven't been able to make greater progress in getting a bus service to the Grange as we have discussed previously. The latest update I have for the Member is that there is an hourly bus service, No. 29, operated by Newport Bus, that links the hospital to Cwmbran and Newport via Caerleon every hour, seven days a week. In terms of his specific point about the valleys he represents, then there will be a new direct bus service to the hospital from key centres in Blaenau Gwent, Torfaen, Caerphilly and Rhondda Cynon Taf in the next six months subject to funding being identified, and then we will be looking to see how we can bake that into the metro enhancements that we are planning. And I realise that is not as good as it should have been, and I apologise for that, but that is something we are still progressing.
And in terms of his final point about the rail links, as he knows, from this December, there will be an hourly service between Cross Keys and Newport, and we have given a £70 million loan to Blaenau Gwent to upgrade the infrastructure so that we can have a new service extending all the way from Ebbw Vale to Newport, which he's been campaigning for consistently, and it will now be delivered. And in terms of the Abertillery link, this is something that is the responsibility of the UK Government and it's not part of the devolved settlement. But our £70 million investment does create a spur to Abertillery which allows that investment to take place when the UK Government is finally willing to step up and supportthe network as it should.

Rhianon Passmore AC: I do welcome the refreshing comments from the Deputy Minister on the inadequate public transport options to the Grange Hospital. There is a growing consensus on the need for urgent action to address the climate challenge emergency that our planet faces, although the Conservatives opposite remain confused despite Boris's change from orange to green.
The ambitious Wales transport strategy is ambitious, and the metro offers us real potential to make a difference alongside the other planned sustainable modes of door-to-door sustainable transport. We know that peopleare aware of the need to lessen car usage but, rightly, they ask for improved public transport alternatives, and I do welcome the progress on bus policy for Wales and that modal shift to follow. Deputy Minister, you note that the Welsh Government have committed a third more rail services to improve connectivity, despite totally non-existent UK infrastructural spend here in Wales—no electrification or other spend in that department from the UK Government. And, in Islwyn, we have seen—

Can you ask your question now, please?

Rhianon Passmore AC: I'm coming to that very swiftly—

Now, please.

Rhianon Passmore AC: —how welcome the Ebbw Vale line to Cardiff is. Deputy Minister, what actions, then, can you and the Welsh Government take in order to meet with the UK Conservative Government to ensure that Wales receives that badly needed funding required to transform Wales's public sector infrastructure?

Lee Waters AC: Well, we genuinely do want to work with them, and we do our very best to have constructive dialogue with them, but it's a bit of a one-way street at the moment, I've got to say. I did have a good meeting with, as I said, the chair of Network Rail recently, and I've met with some of the junior transport Ministers, but not with Grant Shapps himself. And their view is that we should be doing piecemeal bids to the UK Government to compete with all other parts of the UK for rail schemes. Our counter argument is: we have a share of the rail network, and we have a significantly smaller share of the investment that that share of the network requires. And, so, we think, we should, as of right, as from the population share and the track share as well, be getting a larger slice of the pie. They simply don't agree, and they simply will not act. So, I think that makes the levelling-up rhetoric hollow when it comes to Wales, and, in fact, they're making things worse by developing the high speed 2 line without giving us our population share; we do not get a Barnett share for that. So, not only, according to their own business plan, is that going to suck money out of Wales, high speed 2—let's be clear—is going to damage the Welsh economy. So, we get a negative effect to our economy; we don't get the population share that normally rail spend on an England basis would mean that we do get, so we're being short-changed, and they're not addressing their historic under investment in the Welsh rail network. So, I think it's a shameful story, and I would hope the Welsh Conservatives in this Senedd, instead of singing the old songs, would focus on being constructive and trying to get their own Government to stand up for Wales.

Carolyn Thomas AS: As a previous cabinet member for Flintshire, I'd like to say that the Welsh Government has made huge investment in the north Wales metro, providing £17 million of funding to local authorities over the last year alone, and I've seen investment in cycle lanes, park and ride, electric buses, right across the region of north Wales. We've also put—. I know Flintshire's also put in a bid for the parkway station as well—for planning for that—and a bid to UK Government to build it. We also need investment in the north Wales railway line as well, which, again, leads back to the UK Government. We've had £17 million of investment from Welsh Government, but nothing, so far, from the UK Government under level-up funding, and they're still waiting to hear regarding this vital investment. So, we really need to push that and make it happen.
Last week, I also raised public awareness of all this funding that's taken place under the metro initiative. So, that's investment in Fflecsi transport—

Can you ask your question now, please?

Carolyn Thomas AS: Yes, this is it: so, I'm asking can we have metro signage so people will understand the investment made in park and ride, the cycle links—how they all link together—investment in stations as well. I think that's really important. And, also, post COVID—

We need a question.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Post COVID, we need to encourage people to come back to using public transport as well. So, would you, Deputy Minister, make funding available for local authorities to be able to invest in properly advertising the metro, advertising timetables for buses and what's available for people, so they can gain confidence in using public transport again? Thank you.

Lee Waters AC: I think the Member makes a really important point about providing people with information. The research shows that there are two barriers to people taking up public transport: one, is a lack of services, but the other is a lack of information and knowledge about the services that do exist. So, giving people targeted information is essential, and that is one of the things we’re looking at as part of the Wales transport strategy. As well as the infrastructure, how do we improve on what are called softer measures, encouraging measures? Signage and information are a key part of that. So, that is definitely something that we are developing further. 
There is money already available to local authorities for active travel signage and route information if they want to apply for it. I must say, the picture across north Wales in local authorities applying for the funding is very patchy. Some local authorities haven’t put a bid in. So, there’s definitely funding available, and funding that we’re making available to all local authorities.
In terms of the point about signage for the metro development in particular, I will take that back and consider it. It’s a point that’s been made about other metro developments. As I said, this is a significant infrastructure programme—£1 billion of investment—and we do need to let people know that it's coming and it’s exciting, and it should help them think about changing their travel plans.

Darren Millar AC: Minister, you made reference earlier on to the need for Wales to have its population share. What about the population share of investment within Wales? You’ve referred to £1 billion having been invested or earmarked to date for these three metro projects, yet, of that £1,000 million, only £50 million has been allocated to north Wales. That’s a gross disparity in investment by your Welsh Labour Government. What are you going to do to make sure that there’s a fair share of investment coming to north Wales, rather than the insulting and paltry amount that you’ve suggested is going there today?

Lee Waters AC: Well, Darren Millar never misses an opportunity to sow division and try and create a sense of grievance—

Darren Millar AC: This is your division that you've sown.

Lee Waters AC: It’s the first time I’ve heard him make a case for rail investment in north Wales. As I say, he’s normally obsessed with putting money into road-building schemes, despite then going on to plead for the plight of the red squirrel, which—by the way, if we don’t tackle change, biodiversity will be threatened. So, there’s a disconnect in his argument and his thinking too.
As I said, the state of the metros in different parts of Wales are different. We have to raise ambition and delivery right across Wales. That’s what our Wales transport strategy is about, which he hasn’t supported. That’s what our investment in the metro is about, which he hasn’t supported. And that’s what the announcement today about the delivery board for north Wales is about. I’d be grateful if he’d support that.

Jack Sargeant AC: Thank you, Minister. I welcome the announcement of the delivery board, but it has to deliver. Now, it is clear to me that the UK Government are selling north Wales short by not electrifying the main line, so I would be interested to know what discussions you’ve had, Minister, about improving signals and signal crossings as a way of improving that line. I’d also like to understand what plans you and Transport for Wales have got to introduce bi-modal and tri-modal rolling stock in north Wales to help with the increase in frequency within the region.
Now, it was my understanding, Minister, that part of the metro was always rapid bus transit. Now, to me, without the red route, we will not have dedicated bus lanes to allow this to happen. Now, you have made some exemptions for roads in your review. Have you considered exempting the red route and its bus lanes?
And finally, Minister, do you support the efforts by the Mersey Dee Alliance to build a comprehensive active travel network? And with the glare of the Presiding Officer, I will end there. [Laughter.]

Lee Waters AC: Well, I've got to say there’s nothing stopping the local authorities in north Wales from developing an ambitious active travel network now, nor indeed putting in bus lanes. That power has been there all along, and there’s money available to do it. So, that’s why I want to set up this delivery unit, so that we are acting far better together in pushing in the same direction.
The red route, as Jack Sargeant knows full well, is part of the roads review, and one of the purposes of the roads review is to look at how we can prioritise investment on maintaining existing infrastructure, but also creating the investment we need to create things like rapid transit bus routes and improvements in public transport more generally. So, I’m not going to guess what the roads review is going to come up with about the red route, but it’s in the pot with almost everything else to try to shift our direction of travel.
In terms of infrastructure, in terms of rail—trains, rather—on the north Wales network, we are currently progressing the class 230 trains for the Wrexham and Bidston line later this year, and we’ve introduced refurbished InterCity trains on services between north and south Wales, with increased capacity and better customer services. We’re trailing the testing of new trains around north Wales at the moment, and I’d be happy to write the Member with further details of what plans we have.

Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I appreciate the fact that you've allowed this question. Thank you very much to the Deputy Minister for the statement. It's only now that I see the maps, but what's striking is the lack of investment and the absence of anything in our rural areas once again. Now, I understand that the maps are looking at trains, but people in rural areas are more dependent on private transport than public transport because of the absence of public transport provision in those rural areas. So, what plans do you have to expand the provision of trains in our rural communities, especially looking at the west, from Angleseydown through Meirionnydd, Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire? Thank you very much.

Lee Waters AC: Well, I think we should be more diagnostic, really, when it comes to public transport in rural areas. I know there is a fixation on heavy rail trains, but, in carbon terms, we've got very tough targets to have to meet. We have to increase emission cuts in the next 10 years more than we've managed in the whole of the last 30 years, and we have a finite amount of money to do that with. So, I think we need to make very hard-headed judgments about where the money we have can make best effect when it comes to carbon savings. And it's my view that spending over £1 billion on heavy rail in rural areas is not the best way to do that.
Now, I think we can achieve significant modal shift in rural areas using different modes. So, as I mentioned in my statement, if we look at the example of rural Germany or rural Switzerland, where they have flexi buses, as we're developing in Wales, they have electric bikes, they have car clubs—there's a whole range of other things that can be done quickly, far quicker than building a heavy rail route, to give people practical alternatives to the car that wouldn't cost as much and would enable us to hit our climate change targets in a way that diverting resources into schemes like these would not.

And finally, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch. Three very short questions. You refer to the North Wales Economic Ambition Board. Given that the growth deal offer was originally a UK Government offer that the Welsh Government signed heads of terms in November 2019 with the UK Government, which is primarily focused on infrastructure and will be co-funded by the two Governments, the UK Government must already be involved in the north Wales metro, particularly on the infrastructure and cross-border connectivity. Can you confirm what that engagement is? Because I know it's sincere and ongoing from the other Government.
Do you recognise that many of the proposals in the north Wales metro actually predated the north Wales metro, coming, for example, from the economic ambition board's Growth Track 360 proposals, the proposals regarding Crewe station, which have now borne fruit, thankfully, and my connectivity with Welsh Government on behalf of rail user groups calling for the service improvements in Shotton and the new station at Deeside Parkway, which predated the announcements on the metro by many, many years?
And finally, will you join me in welcoming the announcement, at a devolved level, by Manchester in England, that the rail link from north Wales to Manchester Airport is now going to be the chosen option to be maintained as we go forward?

Lee Waters AC: Well, clearly, the UK Government has a role to play in public transport in north Wales, and rail is not devolved. And, as has already been mentioned, the electrification of the north Wales line has yet to materialise. We have pushed for union connectivity funding for the delivery unit to push forward electrification of the north Wales line, and I'd appreciate Mark Isherwood's help in persuading his colleagues in Westminster to support his constituents, because they've not done that yet. We've also supported the bid by Flintshire County Council into the levelling-up fund, and we are still waiting to hear from that. So, there is absolutely a role, and we want to work constructively with the UK Government to make this happen.
The UK Government have published plans for a 'Great British Railways', as they're calling it, and properly done—and if it's not just flag waving, it is actually about improving delivery matters—properly done, that could improve partnership working. We supported the recommendation of the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee for a joint delivery board between England and Wales to take these things forward, and we'd very much like to work in partnership with them on that. But partnership is a two-way thing, and responsibility for rail infrastructure is not devolved, and the UK Government is not delivering.

I thank the Deputy Minister, and thank you, everyone. We will now suspend proceedings to allow changeovers in the Siambr. If you are leaving the Siambr, please do so promptly. The bell will be rung two minutes before proceedings restart. Any Members who arrive after a changeover should wait until then before entering the Siambr.

Plenary was suspended at 15:55.

The Senedd reconvened at 16:06, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.

4. Questions to the Senedd Commission

Welcome back. Our next item is questions to the Senedd Commission. The first three questions will be answered by the Llywydd. Question 1, Carolyn Thomas.

Engagement with Schools in North Wales

Carolyn Thomas AS: 1. What is the Commission doing to engage with schools in North Wales? OQ57053

The Senedd's education and youth engagement team engages with schools from across Wales to increase understanding of the Senedd's work. Since April 2021, over 5,000 young people and education professionals have engaged in our education sessions, which, due to the pandemic, have taken place predominantly online. Over the past year, our engagement work with young people has focused on raising awareness of the Senedd election in May and encouraging young people to stand in the upcoming Welsh Youth Parliament election in November this year. Fifty-six young people from the North Wales region have nominated themselves for the Welsh Youth Parliament election.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you for that answer. I have thoroughly enjoyed meeting schools across north Wales virtually and hearing the issues that are important to them. I have been contacted by the parent of a child in Ysgol Bryn Coch in Mold, who is disappointed that the child will be unable to visit the Senedd for an education visit in person during a school trip to Cardiff. I believe they fit it in with visits to other establishments as well in south Wales around here, so it's a really good trip to come from north Wales to south Wales. So, I think it's a real shame, and we should encourage children to be involved in our democracy from a young age, so it would be great if they could come and visit in person for that education visit. So, can I ask whether the Commission has plans to reopen the Senedd estate for education visits in person? Thank you.

Thank you very much for the question. I'm sorry, of course, that this experience isn't currently available to young people and those in school because of the pandemic and the risk assessments that we've undertaken. But we certainly want to see young people returning to this estate, so that they can have that experience of coming here to their national Senedd, their Parliament, as well as learning about democracy. So, we are looking to see when the risk assessment will allow us to be able to reopen the centre for learning for young people. We're sorry for that particular school if it's not going to be ready to do so according to the current pandemic restrictions for this trip that they're undertaking, but if it's not this time, then hopefully soon the experience will be available to young people again.

Members of the Senedd's Pension Scheme

Sioned Williams MS: 2. Will the Commission make a statement on its relationship with the Members of the Senedd pension scheme's pensions board? OQ57041

The Commission’s relationship with the Members of the Senedd's pension scheme board is limited to that of nominating two of the five trustees who sit on the Members' pension scheme board. Two other trustees are nominated by Members of the Senedd and another independent trustee is appointed by the remuneration board. The Commission pays contributions to the pension scheme at a rate set by the scheme's actuary, and the Commission also employs the staff who administer the pension scheme on behalf of the trustees.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you for that.

Sioned Williams MS: I raise this question due to an inquiry I've received from a constituent of mine regarding the Members' pension scheme, which is partially governed, as you say, by the Senedd pensions board. Politics and ethics are completely intertwined, and it's therefore crucial that the Senedd as an institution does not involve itself, even indirectly, in anything that is ethically questionable, for example, the nuclear weapons industry or manufacturers of other weapons banned by United Nations' treaties. Can the Commission advise how I might seek clarity on this, so that I can hopefully reassure my constituent that the Members' pension scheme does not invest in nuclear weapons companies or any other manufacturers of banned weapons? Diolch.

Thank you very much for that supplementary question. As a point of information, the pensions board has a statement on its investment strategy, and this takes into account environmental, social and corporate governance principles. And, because of the nature of the quasi-independent relationship between the Commission and the pensions board, I would suggest that you raise these specific issues that you have in terms of investments with the chair of the pensions board. That is the place to go to get the information you're seeking. And, of course, the pensions board publishes a report and newsletter for Members on their work, and that's also a source of information on their investments and delivery against their objectives, and they do share that with Members, and I think the last was published in August.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank Sioned Williams for the question and Elin Jones as Presiding Officer for her answer, part of which was going to be my question: do you agree with the following? What I will say, though, are two things: will the Commission, if they have any requests for informal discussions, refer them to either Nick Ramsay or me, who are the representatives of Members in here, so that we can have the informal discussion before the Member can have the more formal discussion with the board as a whole? I'm very happy to talk to any Members across the Chamber on this, and I'm sure Nick Ramsay would be as well. We're there to represent the views of Members and, as such, if Members have an issue, discuss it with us and then you or I, or Nick Ramsay, can raise it formally.

I almost feel as if I don't need to respond to that, because Mike Hedges has done his own publicity for himself and Nick Ramsay, who are the direct representatives of us as elected Members here on the pensions board. So, I thank Mike for making himself available for discussion informally with Members on the nature of the investments, but also, as I said, in addition to that informal raising of these issues with our representatives, any issue can be raised formally directly with the board in writing to the chair and the members.

Engagement with 16 and 17-year-olds

Jane Dodds AS: 3. What work is the Commission undertaking to engage with 16 and 17-year-olds about the work of the Senedd, given their recent enfranchisement? OQ57068

Thank you for the question. Engaging with young people continues to be a priority for us in the sixth Senedd. Following on from our efforts to encourage young people aged 16 and 17 years of age to vote in the Senedd election in May, officials are continuing to engage with various academic and civic groups to better assess the effectiveness of the campaign. There will be a report from that assessment available to us very soon.
We will be holding our second set of Welsh Youth Parliament elections in November 2021, where 285 young people will be standing for election. And may I encourage every Member of the Senedd to look at which young people have submitted their names in their constituencies and regions, and to encourage young people in those constituencies and regions to take part in the election, which will begin on 1 November and will run until 22 November?

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch, Llywydd. The connection here is absolutely clear, because I wanted to ask about the Welsh Youth Parliament, which, as we know, was formed in 2018 and I'm sure we've all loved watching its development as a platform for young people to have their voices heard. And, yes, I would like to add to your encouragement to ensure that Members of the Senedd do try to encourage young people to engage in the elections for the youth parliament. I'm also aware of the efforts of the Senedd Commission in attempting to increase public engagement with young people in particular. In that spirit, would you be able to provide an update, please, on the work of the communications and engagement directorate in their engagement with young people in particular? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Of course, the nature of that work of engaging with young people has changed significantly during the past 18 months, with less emphasis, of course, on visits and direct discussions and visits to the Senedd, and a greater emphasis—almost solely, in fact—on virtual contact. And of course, that has enabled even more young people to have that experience of learning about our work as a Senedd through that virtual engagement without having to travel down to Cardiff to visit the Senedd directly. But as I said in response to Carolyn Thomas, there is value, of course, once we are in a position to do so, in offering both methods of engaging with our young people; doing that virtually for an increasing number of young people, but also offering the resources that we have in a visit to the national Senedd here. Both aspects of engagement with young people are needed.

Rhys ab Owen AS: It's very encouraging to see so many people who want to participate in the Welsh Youth Parliament, and it's clear that they have a great interest in a number of issues such as the climate emergency and issues around social justice. It was a little disappointing in terms of the number that registered to vote at 16 and 17 years old, and also the numbers were very inconsistent. For example, Cardiff was below 35 per cent whilst—I'm sure you'll be very pleased to hear this, Llywydd—Ceredigion was among the highest with 63 per cent. But what work is the Commission doing to target those local authorities where voter registration was low among young people to ensure that these young people do feel part of Welsh democracy and do register for local and Senedd elections in the future?

It is true to say that those levels of registration to vote leading up to the elections in May were diverse, and we need to learn lessons in terms of why that did happen, and how we can improve the promotion of registration for the elections in 2026. As I said in response to an earlier question, there is work to be done by various academic institutions and public organisations, and that work is being done to assess the success and engagement of young people with that election this year. And there will be lessons, then, for us emanating from that assessment, I'm sure, for coming years, particularly on the point that you make about the variation in that level of registration. Then there will be a report on that assessment that will be published in the coming weeks, and so we will be able to see what the analysis is of these areas in that report. We can discuss further, then, how we can improve the situation that we faced in May of this year, remembering, of course, that that election and our engagement with young people had been affected so much by the pandemic and the inability to discuss face to face with young people in their schools and colleges.

Question 4 is to be answered by Joyce Watson. Jack Sargeant.

Mental Health Support for Employees

Jack Sargeant AC: 4. Will the Commission make a statement on the mental health support that is available to Senedd employees? OQ57045

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you, Jack, for your question. The Senedd Commission takes the well-being of Senedd Commission staff very seriously. It's been an area of particular focus throughout the pandemic when we've monitored mental well-being through frequent surveys and maintained regular contact with staff. There is an onsite occupational health professional who can provide a confidential source of support and referral to other services, and there's an employee assistance service providing advice and guidance to support mental well-being, including counselling if appropriate. That service is also available for Members and their staff. The Commission has established a mental well-being network that includes trained mental health first-aiders.

Jack Sargeant AC: Thank you very much for that answer, Commissioner. It was just last Wednesday when I raised, through a number of media outlets, the issue of social media abuse, and it feels like aggression and violence are increasingly part of politics. This isn't right. It's certainly not the style of kinder politics that I wish to see, and many others in this Chamber wish to see. It was last Friday when we saw the horrific attack—and our thoughts are with the family and friends and colleagues of Sir David Amess, of course—and then it was just yesterday when we saw Michael Gove abused by an aggressive mob in the street. I send my warmest regards to him, and I do wish him well. But it's not just politicians who receive this abuse or aggression. Our staff are often the ones to read it and receive it, and this clearly has a toll on their mental health and well-being. So, can I ask you, Commissioner, what further support could be put in place to help our staff, to keep them safe, and to help them recover afterwards?

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for that question. You're absolutely right; from day one of coming here you've called for a kinder politics, and you're right to do that.
In terms of the Commission, we do have a very long-term focus on mental well-being and reducing the perceived stigma. Employees are encouraged to bring their whole selves to work, and I think that is hugely important. Apart from all the other things that are done here, there's a regular pulse survey to monitor well-being rather than just attendance, which allows real-time responses by the executive board. Because very often, illness is monitored by people either being in a room or on a monitor or not, but that won't tell you anything about what's happening to the individual.
I think, in terms of going forward, there is a clear need, in my opinion—and I'm sure it'll be shared by others—to monitor what is being said online, and that if people are actually being directly approached or affected, for them to know that there is an avenue here in the Senedd for them to talk about that. I think overall we have to take responsibility ourselves in the way that we communicate—there's no question about that, either. But you're right—our staff usually are the first people to see the hatred and the vitriol, and that is not part of their role. So, moving forward, I'd be very happy to work with you, Jack, to take this to where it needs to be, and that's to resolve or at least limit some of this hatred. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell AC: As we've heard, since Jack tabled this question it has become even more pertinent considering the events of last Friday. So much support has been given to us as Members since last week in order to discuss safety, but members of staff—Commission staff, as well as Members' staff, too—also have to cope with this stress and fear, and have to deal with, as Jack has said, online threats of violence, trolling and bullying. But also, in terms of our offices, what additional support can be given, please, to our members of staff to help them cope? I heard what you said, Commissioner, to Jack in terms of online safety, but safety in our offices as well, please.

Joyce Watson AC: You're absolutely right—there is significant support since last Friday; it's been fast-tracked, and is available to all Members and their staff here in the Senedd. They've made themselves readily available both in person and online. I think it's important that people take things seriously. Because I all too often hear people say, 'Well, I had this or that, but I didn't take it seriously'. Threats have to be taken seriously, and then they can be dealt with accordingly. So, that's the first message I'd like to send to Members and staff. But there is a dedicated health and well-being portal available, which is online, and there are self-help tips and adjustments that you can make. But I think perhaps what we really need here is some training on how to avoid the pitfalls and how to recognise, I think, for ourselves and our staff, what we can do—besides the 'delete' button, that is—to keep ourselves safe. I thank you for your question.

Diolch, Joyce, and I apologise for giving you the wrong surname earlier on. The translator was right.

5. Topical Questions

Item 5, topical questions. First, Samuel Kurtz.

The Welsh Government’s Roads Review

Samuel Kurtz MS: 1. What impact will the Welsh Government’s roads review have on improvements already in progress on the A40: Llanddewi Velfrey to Redstone Cross bypass? TQ572

Lee Waters AC: As I confirmed to Joyce Watson in the climate change committee this morning, the A40 Llanddewi Velfrey to Redstone Cross project will not be reviewed by the roads review panel, and will proceed as programmed.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. That's really reassuring to hear after what you will understand has been a concerning weekend in west Wales due to a press report release that said to the contrary. Your office said, 'We understand the interest in this project. It is right for the scope of this review to be as broad as possible. Beyond that, we cannot predetermine the views of the panel', clearly indicating that the A40 project at Redstone Cross/Llanddewi Velfrey was part of the review. And on the floor of this Chamber to myself and to my colleagues, you gave assurances four times, and again today, which I'm very grateful for. The people in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire and Llanddewi Velfrey will be very grateful for this, as will the former Her Majesty's coroner, Mark Layton, who also called for this following a series of nasty fatal accidents on this dangerous stretch of road.
I am very thankful that this happened, and the reason that I bring it forward today is that this is about more than this project alone; this is about taking the assurances that Government Ministers give us as backbenchers and opposition Members—that we are able to take them at face value, that we are able to believe the assurances that we get to written questions and to oral questions here in the Chamber. As I said, Deputy Minister, I heard your response to my colleague Natasha Asghar earlier regarding the Conservatives and roads. This is about more than this road, Deputy Minister; this is about making sure that the information we receive as Members is correct, and that there is unnecessary conflict avoided when press reports are out saying that the contrary is true. So, I do welcome your commitment to this project. I know everybody in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire will welcome it, businesses will welcome it, as will the community of Llanddewi Velfrey, who've been calling for this project for a number of years. Diolch.

Lee Waters AC: I'm very happy to clarify that when we announced the roads review, we made a distinction between roads that were within scope and those that were outside of scope. Those that were outside of scope were ones where contracts had been let. The phrase I used was that there were 'diggers in the ground'. Now, I think Mr Kurtz has interpreted 'diggers in the ground' rather literally and made a series of suggestions that there were not diggers in the ground—that work was not taking place. Both he and the local MP made a series of comments in newspapers and in the Senedd that suggested that perhaps we had wrongly categorised this scheme, and perhaps it ought to be within the roads review because work was not advanced. I took that very seriously, as I think I ought to—as to the point the Member had made to us.
The roads review panel, when it was set up by Dr Lynn Sloman, was working to terms of reference that said that projects would not be part of the review if the works were too advanced to cease. Given what Mr Kurtz said, we had a discussion with the panel on whether or not this was the case. The panel asked whether or not they would be able to look at the scheme as part of their review, and I have met with officials to understand the state of the scheme. And having looked at it, I'm satisfied that the road is, in fact, too advanced to cease. The cost of the road is around £80 million for a few sections; about £20 million of that has been committed and is not recoverable. Furthermore, if we were to delay the scheme any further, there's a real danger that the European funding would be lost entirely to Wales.
So, given that, my original statement stands. I think it was absolutely sincere when it was said, and, as I say, it was only after repeated questioning by Sam Kurtz that perhaps we'd got this wrong that we looked again at it. But having looked again at it, I'm satisfied that the original judgment is correct and that the road should go ahead.

Joyce Watson AC: It was pleasing this morning, when I asked you the question in the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, to have an answer that you’d already given actually before, so it seems. I travel this road—up and down—at least twice a week and I could clearly see that that work was ongoing. I’m not sure that I’d seen a digger exactly, but I could certainly see work. I was certainly there in traffic lights as well, which were holding traffic, quite rightly.
But I think what we’re seeing here is an £80 million investment in improving a road, carrying out a promise that we had made. And I do take some issue with the fact that what we are—you are, as Ministers—saying to people must be believable. Well, as far as I can see, it always was believable, because your answers were quite clear to those who wanted to listen. So, my final word on this is it seems to me that this is really much ado about nothing.

Deputy Minister, do you want to add anything?

Lee Waters AC: I don't think there's anything to add. I thank Joyce Watson for her comments and I agree with her summary.

Thank you, Deputy Minister. The next topical question is from Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Aneurin Bevan University Health Board

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 2. How is the Government addressing staff concerns and morale within Aneurin Bevan University Health Board following the publication of a critical Royal College of Physicians report? TQ573

Minister.

Eluned Morgan AC: I'm aware of this report and I spoke to the Royal College of Physicians about it when I met them in August. The health board is taking these findings very seriously and has drawn up an action plan to address the recommendations and I very much expect to be kept informed about progress on those actions.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Gweinidog. Coverage of the Royal College of Physicians's report on the experiences of staff within Aneurin Bevan University Health Board made for some disturbing reading. It is unacceptable that trainee doctors and consultants are, and I quote, 'scared to come to work'. Andrew Goddard, the RCP president went as far as saying,
'During our virtual visit some trainees told us that they were scared to come to work, in case they lose their GMC number. In my eight years at the Royal College of Physicians I've visited hundreds of different hospitals—and I had never heard that before.'
The reason why staff are so frightened of losing their General Medical Council number is down to serious concerns about patient safety under the new hospital model, which sees workforce and patients moving between multiple sites that are under-resourced. Many of my constituents will be worried about this news, so I want to hear from you today what steps you have taken to improve patient safety within Aneurin Bevan University Health Board. Can you provide the assurances that people in my region need? Furthermore, how are you addressing the legitimate concerns of hard-working staff who deserve better and should not be fearful of coming to work?

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, and I took that report very seriously as well and was extremely concerned when I heard about it first-hand from the Royal College of Physicians when I met Dr Olwen Williams earlier on in the summer. I think we do need to remember the context in which those visits were taking place. We must remember that the Grange was opened ahead of time and that was partly as a result of responding to the pandemic. And it was because of that that perhaps the checks that would usually be made before you open a hospital, perhaps were not made in the way that usually would have occurred, and it was at that time or very soon after that that the visit took place by the Royal College of Physicians. And so, clearly, there are issues to address.
I'm very pleased that the action plan is very detailed—that the health board is taking it extremely seriously and that they have started looking very seriously at quite significant additional recruitment to take pressure off the staff who are currently there. But also, one of the issues that I'm particularly concerned about is the well-being of the staff, and certainly there is a review being undertaken in relation to that—a review of medical staffing. There are strategies to address that medical recruitment situation. There's a board, which will focus on staff well-being and engagement, and they'll be meeting face to face with representatives of the staff on a fortnightly basis now. There will certainly be some work to do in relation to patient flow at the Grange, and provision of safe care for children at other hospital sites in the health board area, in addition to the fact that there will be a focus on training and education. So, I am pleased to see the health board has certainly taken this seriously, but as I say I will be watching to make sure that what they said they're going to do is actually enacted.

Russell George AC: A flagship hospital, Minister, is of course supposed to be leading by example, and we know that the question today is about the Grange hospital, which has the worst A&E waiting times of any hospital in Wales. Now, the report in question today talks about the unhealthy workplace and talks about staff frightened to go to work. Understaffed departments, staff burnout and low capacity all of course add significant risk to patient safety. Doctors have told the Government of course the concerns that they have for patient safety regarding the Grange hospital being open four months early, as it would mean that the hospital would be understaffed. So, concerns have been expressed about capacity being too low for the demand that needs to be met across south-east Wales. Now, I'm conscious that the previous health Minister said that it would be a great pleasure to announce that the Grange will open ahead of schedule, saying that it would provide more capacity and resilience. So, my question, Minister, is: what's your assessment? Is the Grange providing that resilience? I suppose, ultimately, in regard to the report today, can you tell the Chamber what lessons in particular you've learnt as a result of the report's findings?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Russell. We do hope that the Grange will become a flagship hospital, because we've spent a considerable amount of money on it; £358 million has been invested in this hospital to support the people of the Gwent area, and I do think that it's important that we remember the context in which it was opened. You must remember that, at the beginning of the pandemic, Gwent was one of the first places in the whole of the United Kingdom that was hit hardest by COVID, so having this hospital being able to take a bit of pressure off other hospitals in the area was a relief at the time. But of course, what it meant was that the recruitment that perhaps should have been done was not done in time. But you do, I think, need to remember the context in which we are working. I'm really pleased now, though, that the health board has understood that they do need to listen to the clinicians who have made their case very clearly through this report.
The Grange was initially designed as a specialist centre, and provision for general internal medicine wasn't prioritised, but it's clear that the local population are accessing the hospital in a different way from the way that was envisaged, and I think the plan now is to make sure that any new recruitment will, for example, help to establish a front-door-based frailty service, for example, which will be able to be led by a consultant and other senior therapists, which is a provision that wasn't envisaged. But sometimes you do need to respond to, actually, the way that the local population are using the facility, even if that wasn't the way that was envisaged in the first place. I know that the health board has done a huge amount of work to try and contact the local population, to try and point them in the right directions in terms of which hospitals they should be attending for what issues. We're still going through those teething problems. It's just that those teething problems, of course in the middle of a pandemic, have taken longer than they would have, probably, if we weren't in a pandemic.

Alun Davies AC: For those of us who have worked with the health board over the last decade in the design and building and construction of not only the Grange but also the model that it underpins, we have seen, over the last year, the national health service in the Aneurin Bevan area respond in a way that is quite magnificent to the suffering of people in this region. We've seen how people have worked and worked and worked hours, days, weeks and months to keep people in our communities safe, and I think we should be working with them and acknowledging the sacrifices that those public service workers have made over the last two years during this pandemic. And we should recognise that commitment and hard work that they've put in over this time.
For the Welsh Government, I believe there are two challenges facing it. First of all, the model. I think the model—the regional care model—is the right model and it's one that the Welsh Government has sought to pursue throughout the whole of my time here. And Members, mainly in the opposition parties, have always sought to prevent that from happening. I think there is a real issue about the provision of healthcare in this country, because it's the easiest thing in the world to say, 'Don't change anything; don't deliver anything new'. And we've seen that. I saw it as a Member for Mid and West Wales, I've seen it as a Member for Blaenau Gwent, and I've seen people standing up making speeches here without understanding the reality of the situation facing doctors, nurses and medical staff on the wards in the hospitals and in the health centres of this country. And Welsh Government needs to understand what the regional model does on a policy basis, and I'm not completely convinced that the Welsh Government has always done that, if I'm quite honest. And—

Can I remind the Member that this is a question, not a speech?

Alun Davies AC: —the second point is important as well, because it's about the practical response of the Government to this report and to what is happening in the region. I believe that the Welsh Government needs to ensure that the Aneurin Bevan health board has the support that it requires in order to deliver this model. The Minister has recognised what is happening in the Aneurin Bevan region through introducing the new hospital model in the middle of a pandemic. That was a decision of Government; it was the right decision. But now, the Welsh Government needs to ensure that that model can actually work by providing additional help and additional support to the Aneurin Bevan health board so that those people who've sacrificed so much have the support from this Government that they require in order to deliver the services upon which we all have the right to rely.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Alun. I think you're absolutely right. I think that the approach of a kind of regional approach to medicine is something that we need to take very seriously. I think that people are prepared to travel to specialist centres, where they know that they're going to get expert support and expert advice, and that means that people do need to understand that that may not mean a very local hospital and that sometimes, they're going to have to travel a little bit to get that specialist support that they may be looking for.
But certainly, in terms of the practical response, we will expect Aneurin Bevan to step up here to respond to those people who, you set out very clearly there, have really stepped up during the pandemic, who have worked their socks off during this time and who, frankly, are exhausted, particularly when the staffing levels are not where they should be. And that's why I am particularly pleased to see that Aneurin Bevan has already given outline approval to address the issues of staffing at a cost of £1.5 million additional funding for that. So, that is money that they already have in their budget. It's about how they're going to spend it and I'm really pleased that they are genuine, I think, in their response to this report. But, as I say, we in the Welsh Government will be keeping our eye on this because I must say that it was very sobering reading from the Royal College of Physicians and certainly, we will be keeping an eye on it, partly because we simply have got to stand by those people who have given their all during this pandemic.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, concerns about chronic understaffing at the Grange hospital have been circulating since the hospital opened in November 2020. On announcing the early date of the opening, the previous health Minister said that the facility would provide more capacity and resilience in the system. However, at present, the Grange hospital has the worst A&E waiting times in Wales, with fewer than 41 per cent of patients being seen within four hours, and this statistic is from August 2021.
Last month, it was reported that patients were waiting up to 18 hours to receive treatment and that 15 ambulances were waiting to hand over patients. In reply to Andrew R.T. Davies's written question last month, you said that it was the responsibility of the Aneurin Bevan health board to meet the needs of their community. So, Minister, will you now take immediate action to address the staff shortages and excessive workloads that are demoralising the workforce and put patients' safety at risk, before the inevitable increase of pressure on services made worse by the coming of winter? I did hear your previous answer, so I just wanted to ask you, as a request: will you now be monitoring the Aneurin Bevan health board? I hope that you will give us an assurance that you will come back to us in the Senedd and report the findings to us before Christmas, if you indeed are. Thank you, Minister.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Natasha. I'm very well aware of the issues around A&E, and I'm keeping a very close eye on the pressures in the system around A&E. That's why we have already made a significant addition in terms of recruitment to the Welsh ambulance service, which was significant not just last year—over 100 last year—but significantly more this year and more to come. Of course, you will be aware that we are also now getting the support of the army to help us out in this situation.
So, a lot of work is being put in place. But, as you say, the key issue here, and the key restriction, is staffing. That's why, as you have reported, we will be keeping an eye on what that staffing looks like. I know that there's a short-term strategy in terms of using the British Association of Physicians of Indian Origin and the European gateway route to really try and do some immediate stuff in recruitment. So, there's a short-term approach that they're hoping to get into place very, very quickly; I know that there are 12 staff that they're trying to recruit via the European gateway route imminently. So, things are moving very quickly in this space, and I'm very pleased to see that, because, clearly, this report needs a response.

David Rees AC: Finally, John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch yn fawr. Minister, as we've heard, staff and services at the Grange are obviously under tremendous pressure. You mentioned the context of the pandemic, and, of course, we now have the context of ongoing COVID incidents and infections and hospitalisations, worries about a very significant flu season this winter, all of the backlog of treatments that we know about, and, of course, a very difficult emergency care situation, and difficulties in discharging to social care because of the staff shortages and pressures that they're under. So, I think that all of that means that the existing situation, which is really worrying, could get considerably worse. So, I am very pleased that you are going to take an ongoing interest in monitoring the position, because, obviously, there are considerable fears over the pressure that is yet to come.
Also, you mentioned the more complex general medical needs, Minister, which were not considered the province of specialised care at the Grange. But we do have quite a complicated model, I think, don't we, where staff and patients are moving between four hospitals. In hospitals like the Royal Gwent, they have minor injuries units now, but not accident and emergency. So, they haven't got the diagnostics and the treatments that can deal with the more complex general medical conditions. So, with the new model and some of the uncertainties and some of the responses that you've mentioned to those issues in play, it really does require Welsh Government, I think, to work very closely with the health board to make sure that all of these problems are overcome. It is a major challenge.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, John. You are quite right that we're not out of the woods yet in relation to the pandemic. The good news, of course, is that the translation of COVID cases into hospitalisations has been massively reduced as a result of our very successful vaccination programme. So, we're hoping not to see the kind of incidence that we saw in the first and second waves, where we are seeing very high incidence in our communities now.
You are absolutely right to draw attention to the fact that flu is also likely to be a big issue this winter. Those winter pressures are already with us, I'm afraid to say, because, partly, of the issue of trying to address that backlog, in addition to all of those other pressures. One thing that I think is key, and that you alluded to there, is the fact that new model is quite complicated. So, we do need to make sure that the people who have that hospital serving them in that area—they need to understand what the model looks like.
I have been in touch with Aneurin Bevan about this, really asking them to make sure that they reach out to the public, to make them very aware of where they should be going for what. My understanding is that they have done a lot of outreach work, that they have done leaflets to all households within the area, so that people should be aware. But there are always people who, in that moment of an emergency perhaps, haven't got quite an understanding of where they should go under those circumstances. So, we need to monitor the situation, John, that’s absolutely clear, and I can assure you that I will be making sure that I keep an eye on the follow-up to this report. And I’m sure the Royal Collage of Physicians will be revisiting this, just to make sure that everything has been implemented as promised.

Thank you, Minister.

6. 90-second Statements

The next item is the 90-second statements. There's only one today, and I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank you very much. Parc Cenedlaethol Eryri—Snowdonia National Park—was established 70 years ago this week. Eryri was one of the first four national parks established in this state, back in 1951.
The national park authority's aim is to protect and nurture natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage in the area, and to promote opportunities to understand and enjoy its unique, special characteristics. It has inspired a generation of people—the people who live there, visitors, as well as artists of all kinds, as they are moved to question, discover and think about the past, present and future of this special tract of our land.
To mark this milestone, the park has commissioned the National Poet of Wales, Ifor ap Glyn, to write a poem in honour of the occasion, and I'll conclude my contribution by reading aloud the last few lines of this wonderful poem:
‘What will we learn from Eryri?To measure ourselves against mountains;and to change speed…To understand that our time here is shortbut our responsibility huge…Then, as we put on our Instagram faceand take a walk, we’ll tread gentlyleaving only our footprintsto burnish the path for our kids.And we’ll smileas we enter these rocky portalsbecause moments herecan enlighten lifetimes.’

7. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal: An employee ownership Bill

We'll move on to our next item on the agenda, the debate on a Member's legislative proposal—an employee ownership Bill. I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM7722 Huw Irranca-Davies
Supported by Joyce Watson, Luke Fletcher, Sarah Murphy, Vikki Howells
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes a proposal for an employee ownership Bill on promoting worker buy-outs and employee ownership
2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to:
a) legislate for a Welsh Marcora law to provide the legal framework, financial support and advice for worker buy-outs;
b) put in place a statutory duty to double the size of the co-operative economy by 2026 and to actively promote employee-ownership and worker buy-outs;
c) provide financial support and advice for workers to buy out all or part of a business facing closure or down-sizing and to establish a workers co-operative;
d) ensure that all companies in Wales in receipt of public funding or part of the social partnership and ethical procurement chains agree to the principles of worker buy-outs and employee ownership.

Motion moved.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Llwydd, and today we’ll explore not only what more can be done to promote employee ownership in Wales, but whether indeed we can introduce a workable Welsh Marcora law. And my thanks to the Business Committee for selecting this proposal for debate and to other Members of the Senedd for supporting the request. I’m looking forward to hearing the contributions today and the Minister’s response.
Now, I declare my interest as a Co-operative Party member and chair of the Senedd Co-operative Party group too. Yet this proposal, I know, has the support in other parties too and in the wider co-operative movement itself, and I look forward to hearing that today.
The Welsh Government programme for government, in the section entitled 'building a stronger, greener economy', reads, encouragingly:
‘We will create an economy which works for everyone, grounded in our values of progressive change—going forward together in the spirit of cooperation, not competition.’
Now, that’s welcome. It reflects the engagement that this Government had in the development of its manifesto with the co-operative agenda indeed. And as co-operation is embedded in the Government programme, which also again has a Minister for responsibility for co-operation, many co-operators as Ministers, and a record number of Co-operative Party Members on these benches too, the programme for government covering this sixth Senedd reiterates a manifesto pledge word for word, pledging to
‘provide greater support for worker buyouts’
and
‘seek to double the number of employee-owned businesses.’
That is real ambition. It’s hugely welcome. It is clear. It’s explicit. It’s in black and white on the printed page for all to see. But not every proposal can make it into a manifesto. We realise that. A manifesto, after all, is not unlike a programme for government—it’s a summary of months if not years of detailed policy development. It boils it down to the oven-ready, publicly digestible fundamentals of what a Government will do. It can’t contain every twist and turn of every policy debate in a windy hall in upper Cwmtwrch or from every Zoom brainstorming meeting crammed full of special advisers, special interest groups, policy wonks and blue-sky thinkers. But I draw the Minister’s attention to one little suggestion, a tiny one, which didn’t quite make it into those final, boiled-down, pared-down, slimline manifesto pledges, and that is to introduce a Welsh Marcora law, to legislate on employee ownership. Fellow co-operators like Christina Rees MP have tried to promote this in the UK Parliament, but they've drawn a blank. But could we do something like this here in Wales?
Where jobs and the local economy rely on one or two larger employers, particularly in manufacturing and industrial sectors, the collapsing or downsizing of just one or two companies can have a huge, disproportionate impact. Unemployment on this scale can have a scarring effect on those individuals, as well as their local communities, for decades. The first step of preventing people becoming unemployed in the first place is crucial. When businesses close or downsize in Italy, the birthplace of the Marcora law—it's great coming from a Welsh Italian here—workers have the right, and the financial support to back it up, to buy out all or part of the business and establish it as an employee-owned co-operative. This rescues either the profitable parts of the business, or even wholly profitable businesses where the margins have just been too small to meet external investors' expectations.
Italy's Marcora law was established over 30 years ago to divert the money that would otherwise be spent on unemployment benefits into retaining the jobs and continuing the economic activity. And it does this by providing workers at risk of redundancy when a business, or part of a business, is about to shut down with their unemployment benefits as a lump sum in advance to use as capital to buy out the business—we know this has happened in Wales in a different context, in a different way—as well as access to support and guidance to make it successful. Now, not only does this keep people in jobs and ensure businesses stay open and productive, it also means the economy over time can shift to a fairer economy, a more democratic structure, where employees themselves have a say and a stake in their workplaces.
Now, I know the Minister will say that this is difficult because of the reservation of powers to Westminster on employment and trade law; I understand that. But we do have powers over economic development, the social partnership, the economic contract, procurement, influence over companies who receive significant Welsh Government funding and more. We have levers that could prize open a Welsh Marcora law within our devolved competencies. And the Minister will rightly, I have to say, point today to the way in which this co-operative Welsh Government is already putting into action its support and funding for the co-operative economy, working alongside the Wales Co-operative Centre and the Development Bank for Wales and others, and we welcome that. But we argue that a Welsh Marcora law would help this Government in this ambitious aim to double the number of employee-owned businesses in Wales. And if he cannot say 'yes' to this proposal today definitively, then work with us to explore this further. Meet with me and the co-operative centre of Wales and others to see us, if we can explore this, to shape this proposal, because I say, 'Where there is a will, political will, then there can be a Welsh Marcora law.' And with those opening comments, I look forward to hearing from other Members.

Vikki Howells AC: It's a pleasure to be speaking in support of the Member for Ogmore's legislative proposal today. He's a passionate champion of co-operative principles. I want to put on the record my membership of the Co-operative Party and also my role as chair of the cross-party group on co-operatives and mutuals.
In my contribution today, I want to briefly mention one very famous incident in my constituency that became the poster child for employee ownership. And, in many ways, the example I will mention is exceptional, but, in lots of others, it's emblematic of the transformational possibilities inherent in adopting a made-in-Wales Marcora law. And that example is Tower colliery. British Coal decided to close this last deep pit in south Wales in 1994, citing the dubious proposition that the mine was uneconomical. This led to a powerful backlash, a story that has been told elsewhere, perhaps most notably in the form of its own opera, but also in the MP for Cynon Valley Ann Clwyd's account of the struggle, including her famous sit-in deep underground. But British Coal was intent on closing Tower, callously putting people out of work, draining money from the local economy. However, within 10 days of the pit closing at the start of 1995, employees of Tower had put in place a bold and brilliant plan. Altogether, 239 miners, led by the National Union of Mineworkers and branch secretary Tyrone O'Sullivan, formed TEBO—Tower Employee Buy Out. Each contributed £8,000 from their own redundancies, enabling them to take over the colliery as a workers—

We appear to have lost Vikki Howells at this point in time. I'll just check in case it's a simple hiccup. It doesn't look like a simple hiccup. We'll come back to let Vikki finish her contribution. In the meantime, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank Huw Irranca-Davies for tabling this motion for debate; itwas one that I was more than happy to support. Like Huw and Vikki, who also supported this motion, I'm a proud Member of the cross-party group on co-operatives and mutuals. It's fair to say that co-operatives and social partnerships are widely accepted as the best way of ensuring that workers get a stronger voice in the workplace, and that they offer the best route to a more sustainable way of doing businesses. I've talked over the past few weeks about how, unless we change the way we run our economy, unless we are willing to change the way we do business, we can expect to go nowhere in tackling poverty and the climate emergency.
Co-operatives and social partnerships allow us to grow the Welsh economy in a sustainable way. We've seen countless times where we've needed greater support for worker buy-outs. They are familiar scenarios to us all: an owner of a business, for example, who has built that business from the ground up and is looking to cash in by selling, which, of course, is their right, or, of course, a business that might collapse. Either option can lead to a good business disappearing from Wales, and with it the jobs that they created. As Huw has rightly pointed out, worker buy-outs can provide us with a solution that keeps those jobs in Wales and keeps a business growing.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Will the Member take an intervention?

Luke Fletcher AS: Of course, yes.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Dwyfor Meironnydd has a very proud history in such company with Antur Aelhaearn, for example, but do you agree with me that co-operatives do put the welfare of the workers and the community that they serve at the forefront, and ensure that more of the funding from the co-operative companies stays in the local economy, and that it stands to reason, therefore, that we should support and promote co-operatives?

Luke Fletcher AS: Of course; I agree entirely. There's an important point there about the money staying in the local community.

Luke Fletcher AS: And if I could take a second as well to say that the Italians are ahead of the game here, as Huw has pointed out, with the Marcora law. EvvivaItalia. Between 2007 and 2013, the law helped to evolve businesses into worker co-operatives and saved over 13,000 jobs. Imagine how many jobs we could have saved over the years had we had a similar provision available for worker buy-outs here in Wales. And imagine the potential security we could have given to workers who would have known that the Welsh Government would be able to support them with buying out the business they worked for if that business and their livelihoods were under threat.
But Italy isn't the only example of where worker co-operatives have brought economic prosperity. Just look at the Basque Country, which was in the same position we find ourselves in today. The Basque Country had a long history of being the scene of industry, especially steel making, but most workers were poorly paid and struggling to get by. Due to time constraints, Dirprwy Lywydd, I won't go into the long history of the co-operative movement there, but we all know the end result through Mondragon. It was interesting, actually, to hear from representatives of the steel co-operatives of the Basque Country that their only complaint was that they wished they had done it sooner.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I was pleased to hear yesterday in the economy Minister's statement a commitment to strengthening and expanding the co-operative sector in Wales. But we have to ensure that we put words into action; we can't pay lip service anymore. And that's one of the reasons why I was so ready to support this motion. There are tangible and achievable asks set out within this motion that could help the sector to flourish in Wales. I would hope that the Senedd passes this motion, and I hope the Minister considers its contents seriously. Diolch.

Sarah Murphy AS: I want to thank Huw Irranca-Davies for bringing this legislative proposal to the Chamber today. As a fellow Member of the Wales Co-operative Party, this Bill is at the heart of our core values to share power and wealth. Employee ownership allows employees to have a stake in the organisation of the businesses and a share of the profits, promoting a responsive, innovative and motivated workforce. In tougher economic times, employee ownership can save jobs, rooting them in the communities and making them more resilient in the long term.
Welsh Government interventions such as the Welsh economic resilience fund were essential to the survival of the Welsh economy over the pandemic. As we move Wales forward, we must take these opportunities to work towards building an economy that creates secure and rewarding jobs, that benefits employees and the local communities that they serve. An employee ownership Bill could play a crucial role in that.
So, just to break it down and back all of this up with further evidence, according to the ownership effect inquiry chaired by Baroness Bowles, on an individual worker level, they can enjoy higher employee engagement, motivation and well-being, and top up their salaries by sharing in the capital value that they create. At a business level, employee-owned business have greater levels of productivity, they encourage employees at every level to drive innovation. For the wider economy, they are more likely to create and retain jobs that are rooted in our local areas, and then, for existing businesses, there can be minimal disruption for your business, particularly if you're advised by specialists, and there's no need to find a buyer, because your employees will already understand the potential of your business and will pay a fair price. Why wouldn't we want to do this?
However, one of the biggest barriers to more employee ownership, apparently, is the lack of awareness and knowledge available for businesses within the Welsh economy. As Luke Fletcher said, when businesses end up doing this, they think to themselves, 'Why didn't I do this sooner?' So, this is why I would like to say again how pleased I am to be discussing this today, so that an employee ownership Bill could potentially be part of Wales's recovery, creating an inclusive and resilient economy by growing employee and worker ownership, rather than lose jobs, our high streets and town centres. We now need cross-party support and investment if it is going to be a success for businesses and our local economies.

I see that Vikki Howells's connection has been re-established, and I call upon Vikki Howells to give her concluding remarks. I remind her she's got a minute left.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. So, Tower Colliery stayed operational until 2008, giving people work, keeping money in the local economy, and the tale of Tower, one of triumph, tenacity, and proving the coal board and the Department of Trade and Industry wrong, is remarkable. But the principle of supporting and enabling employee acquisition of the company is one that shouldn't be, and neither should the wider benefits that the operating model brought to the local area.
Community involvement via a liaison committee and a community benefit scheme for villages surrounding the pit, providing funding to groups and individuals and sustaining legacy projects, are all benefits that could be replicated in communities across Wales if we create a framework under which it's easier for employees to buy out the enterprise within which they work. Such a model would also, I suggest, go a long way towards creating the missing middle that is a key objective to developing the foundational economy in Wales. So, I hope that colleagues from around the Siambr can join me in supporting this proposal today.

Joel James MS: I'd like to start by thanking the Member for raising this debate and for the way in which he's put forward his argument. Though I recognise the reasons why the Member has brought forward these proposals, I nonetheless think that the Member is off-kilter on what the potential benefits of implementing a 1980s Italian-style Marcora law in Wales would be, and I'm also concerned that the Member is asking the Welsh Government to consider radical economic proposals when they are already struggling to implement current legislation that they've already agreed to.
As we all know in the Chamber, the UK Government is very open in its support for co-operative businesses and how they would like to grow the co-operative sector in this country. The co-operative employee-ownership model is seen by many in the United Kingdom, across all political spectrums, as being good for workers, local communities and businesses. Indeed, the Conservative UK Government has recognised this and has introduced a series of measures to support and protect the sector. One such example is the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014, which has substantially cut the legal complexities involved in running co-operatives, and, alongside this legislation, we have seen an increase in the amount of withdrawable share capital a member can invest in co-operatives from £20,000 to £100,000. This has given a number of co-operatives in this country much needed and greater flexibility in raising capital.
Furthermore, I understand the UK Government has highlighted again and again that they're very much open to receiving credible proposals for this reform, and Her Majesty's Treasury continually engages with the co-operative sector to maximise its potential. My Labour colleagues should be looking at this route rather than trying to argue for what they see to be trendy European policies that are nearly 40 years old.
With specific regard to the introduction of the Marcora law in Wales, I think Membersneed to recognise that there are clear differences between the Italian and UK economies now and the Italian and UK economies of the 1980s. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development currently has UK unemployment at 4.7 per cent, whilst it was at 8 per cent in Italy prior to the introduction of the Marcora law. It then shot up to about 10 per cent and has averaged at that level ever since. It is currently at 9.3 per cent. Furthermore, in addition to the UK's comparatively low unemployment rate, we also have unprecedented levels of job support, helping those who find themselves unemployed back into work as quickly as possible. This means, according to the latest OECD data, that UK workers are less likely than Italian workers to be unemployed for substantial periods of time. This not only shows that there's a clear disparity between the two nations, but if there were any positive outcomes to the introduction of the Marcora law in Italy, these would not be felt as strongly in Wales. Welfare savings are often highlighted as one of the main benefits of the Marcora law, but since UK workers are considerably less likely to remain on long-term unemployment, it's far from clear whether or not a Marcora-style employment policy would deliver this for Wales.
So, let's bring this back into the realms of reality. Co-operative businesses purchased by workers in Italy under the Marcora law are part funded by three years' worth of surrendered unemployment benefits. So, basically, if the worker buy-out co-operative goes bust—

Can the Member conclude now, please?

Joel James MS: —and a large proportion of these do, then workers will be unable to claim welfare benefits to support themselves and their families for up to three years. I suspect that very few people here have given this any thought, preferring to focus on the perceived benefits, rather than the cold, hard reality of the matter. I doubt Members here are seriously proposing that workers will have to surrender their welfare entitlements, but this is a fundamental part of the Marcora law.
Thus, if Members are genuine in their desire to develop co-operative businesses in Wales, they would be better off making credible proposals to amend current and existing legislation rather than trying to recycle 1980s economic policies that were originally put forward by a Government that collapsed under the weight of its own corruption. We will not be supporting this motion. Thank you.

Alun Davies AC: It's a very courageous man who seeks to defend the current economic policy of the United Kingdom Government. I notice that the business Secretary on the Today programme this morning didn't even rise to the challenge. In that contribution, Joel James described a 'cold, hard reality', and cold and hard is how it feels to be at the beck and call of UK economic policy at the moment. I'm not sure there are many people in Wales who feel that we are seeing the success of neoliberalism at the moment.
And in making that argument, of course, what he also does is to misunderstand fundamentally the nature of the Welsh economy for too many people and too many businesses. One of the great advantages of a co-operative approach to business and to economic organisation, of course, is a business that is rooted in a community, that is rooted in its place, that is rooted in seeking to deliver economic benefit for people in that community and not to extract wealth from that community. Those of us who grew up in the south Wales Valleys know all about the extraction of wealth, and we know all about what was left: grinding poverty and hopelessness was left, whilst the coal owners enjoyed a life of undreamt luxury and benefits from the labour of those people.
And let me say this, co-operatives offer us an alternative economic model that has the potential to root an economy in the creation of wealth for the first time for decades. My parents were born under a co-operative approach to healthcare. The Tredegar Medical Aid Society, the forerunner of the health service, was a co-operative. It was created by the workers of Tredegar in order to deliver healthcare when that was not provided by the state. And I believe that the Welsh Government—and this is what I'd look for in the Minister's response—has an opportunity here, within the settlement, to actually create co-operatives that can have a transformative impact, not only on the economy of Wales but on the communities of Wales as well.
Take, for example, what we're seeking to do in terms of transport. We've had a conversation this afternoon about public transport. We know there are opportunities for people to organise transport collectives in order to deliver the sort of public transport that we all want to see. We had conversations last week about energy policy. We know that there are opportunities for people to create energy co-operatives in different communities, to ensure that we have renewables able to match our ambitions both for climate policy and for social policy and to deliver the sort of energy revolution that we want to see. But I would like to see the Government go further as well. I can see that I'm not the only former fisheries Minister in this Chamber, and one of the things that I felt that the Government could look at, which we never had an opportunity to do in the past, was, for example, to ensure a collectivisation of quotas, to ensure that the fishing industry owned the quotas that they were able to deliver.

Can the Member conclude now, please?

Alun Davies AC: I'm looking at Peter Fox; I had a good conversation with him earlier about his proposed food legislation. You know and I know that the agriculture industry uses—[Interruption.] We haven't got time to take an intervention. It uses collectives and uses co-operatives already. You know it works, I know it works. Tell Joel James that it works as well. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to thank Huw Irranca-Davies for bringing forward today's debate. I should make clear that I, too, am a Welsh Labour and Co-operative member, as I have been since my election to this place in 2011. I think it is an important and a timely discussion, and I want to thank Members for their thoughtful contributions, including a note of disagreement in the Chamber. I particularly want to thank Vikki Howells in two parts for reminding us of the story of Tower, and not just what happened at the time that Tower was created as a worker-owned operation, but its continued future—what is now a fantastic business—and the structure and support it required to be successful, as well as the determination of its workforce to ensure that it was successful. In Wales, it's a good example of our strong commitment to social enterprise and the co-operative sector. The values that we lean on and the principles of social enterprise and co-operation were part of helping us through the COVID pandemic, and what I think will be part of helping to build the greener, fairer, more prosperous future that Alun Davies celebrated with us yesterday.
I want to see the sector continue to grow. We've demonstrated our commitment, as Huw Irranca has recognised, in the programme for government and the vision set out in ‘Transforming Wales through social enterprise’. That action plan was launched last year after being co-produced with social enterprises and support agencies here in Wales. Management buy-outs are already an important facet in any healthy business system. They provide the opportunity for businesses to grow and to continue, usually by retaining local ownership and commitment, as many Members have recognised. They're an important part of the foundational economy, but I should say of course that co-ops and mutuals are not simply local businesses; very large businesses can be worker-owned enterprises too, of which perhaps John Lewis is the most obvious example. But opportunities for co-operatives, especially through the succession route of Welsh business—[Interruption.] I'll just finish on this point. They will help keep these businesses based and owned by people in Wales. I'll take the intervention then make more progress.

Mark Isherwood AC: Prior to coming to this place, I was proud to work in the mutual sector for more than two decades, and I strongly support the success of mutuals and co-operatives and the benefits they bring to our market economy. But the organisation I worked for crashed a few years after I left and had to be taken over by another organisation. So, do you recognise they're not a magic bullet, and unless they make a surplus, they won't thrive and survive, and that surplus is dependent upon customer service, competitiveness and financial prudence?

Vaughan Gething AC: No-one is arguing that co-ops or mutuals are a magic bullet and guarantee survival; that's always been the case. And I recognise of course that the Member is right to highlight that in the finance sector, there is a long tradition of successful mutuals, and a business model that I think is here to stay for the future.
We already have in Wales extensive support available for the sector. Employee Ownership Wales is part of the Social Business Wales programme funded by the Welsh Government and the now former European regional development fund as far as Wales is concerned—a successful programme that is of course at risk if that practical support in the form of European Union funds is not reprovided to Wales in the future. It currently provides fully funded bespoke advice to help decide if employee ownership and share schemes are the right solution for that business moving forward. In addition, we offer dedicated support through Business Wales, and that helps with succession planning options, including management buy-outs.
In addition to this, I've asked my officials to work with the sector to explore options on how we can further promote employee ownership and worker buy-outs with our wider stakeholders and businesses here in Wales, including the work that the Development Bank of Wales already undertakes. Whether it's the work that we've done in recent years with the ideas of the Welsh Co-operative and Mutuals Commission to make real the values of co-operative action across areas of Government, whether it's in social care, where we have legislated to support the development of not-for-profit providers and set up the integrated care fund to promote alternative delivery models, or whether it's in the foundation economy, we have already established new experimental funds to test innovative ideas and new ways of working that we hope can and will scale up within procurement. We have already used the powers of devolved Government here in Wales in a confident way, to work with partners like the Wales Co-operative Centre, and to take many of the ideas honed over the last century of this movement's work to make progressive change a reality and to improve the lives of working people.
We're committed to continuing this journey through the policy levers that we do have available here in Wales. If we were to introduce legislation in this area, more detailed discussions would be required to understand the benefit of doing so. I have an open mind on the question of legislation, but there is the very real practical challenge of both a packed legislative agenda, but also the balance of reserved and devolved powers that the Member identified in his opening.
The Government will abstain on the motion today, but Welsh Labour, including the very many Welsh Labour and Co-operative Members, will have a free vote. However, I do want to respond positively to what I think is the point and the purpose that the Member highlights in bringing this motion before us today: how can we and how will we double the size of employee-owned businesses in Wales within this Welsh Parliament term? Because I'll be very happy to take up his suggestion to sit down with him, with fellow co-operators and the Wales Co-operative Centre to discuss just how we do that in practice and fulfil our manifesto pledge.

I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to reply to the debate.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'll respond very briefly. Can I first of all just thank everybody who's taken part in this debate? It's been well worth while. I've enjoyed it all, and I'll try and respond briefly to some of the contributions, finishing with the Minister.
First of all, to Joel. I welcome the contribution and the criticism of this as well, because we need that challenge. But I would simply say that those existing co-operatives that are now in place in every part of Wales are not part of the 1980s sandal-wearing agenda; they are in the most cutting-edge parts of the economy, working as employee-owned businesses and reaping the benefits that were described by Sarah Murphy and others. They're not some throwback to the past; they're actually a look ahead to the future. But I welcome his contribution.
Alun Davies in response curiously said there—he made an important point—that the co-operative approach here to, actually, employee ownership is about not extracting wealth from communities, as we've seen in the past with a free-for-all neoliberal agenda, or before there was even a neoliberal agenda, but actually rooting that wealth in the local economy, and recycling it amongst people who share the ownership of it.
Let me turn then to the comments that were made by Luke. I really welcome the support for this, Luke, and your membership of the cross-party group on co-ops and mutuals shows the spread of support for this sort of agenda. As you said, it's a solution to keep jobs in Wales, in the communities, keep the wealth in the communities, keep the jobs here as well—what you were laying out the other day, Minister, about keeping people working in Wales. What could be more attractive than having a share in the businesses and the companies they work for?
Sarah's comments—thank you so much for that contribution, as a fellow Co-operative Party member as well, as were others. You turned to Baroness Bowles's analysis based on the evidence there, and you rightly cited higher employee engagement, motivation and well-being, a more inclusive, transparent and effective model of governance, topping up the salaries by sharing the capital value of the companies that are involved, and stronger workforce retention, which we hear so much about today. This is what co-operative models of worker ownership actually do—greater levels of productivity and efficiency. Joel, this isn't a 1980s throwback, this is this century looking forward, genuinely.
If I turn finally to Vikki there, before the Minister. Vikki—[Interruption.] Sorry, did you want to—? Am I allowed to—? Yes.

Joel James MS: Thank you for that intervention. The Conservative Party isn't against co-operatives. One of the fundamental things that we are against, really, with the Marcora thing that was brought in in the 1980s, was a Government-backed investment of 3:1, which was a substantial Government investment that was actually proven to break EU state-aid rules. That is one of the major issues we have here, if you're proposing that legislation. So, can you confirm what element of financial backing will you be expecting from the Welsh Government?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I'm really glad to hear that you're not opposed to the idea of employee ownership and co-operative models of worker ownership. I would just say to him, don't look back at that 1980s model. Actually look at working with us on what a new model would look like to achieve exactly the same end.
That brings me to Vikki Howells, who spoke to us in a tale of two halves, very like the Tower story itself—a group of people who came together, did an employee buy-out and actually gave two decades of further life to that, and are now reinventing it again for another era with the money that they've reinvested rooted in those communities—in the wealth of those communities. And look, if they can create an opera about this, which would seem such a mundane thing, we're in business, I'm telling you.
Finally, Minister, I'm delighted that in response you did lay out exactly what this Welsh Government is doing already, and it is extensive; it is huge, the ambition behind it, including working with the co-operative centre, the European funding that's currently going on, which we need to replace to go into this support, Business Wales, the Development Bank of Wales, and you'll explore more options. I was so delighted to hear you say you have an open mind on the question of legislation. In that case, Minister, as a fellow co-operator, let's sit down and discuss it.

The proposal is to note the legislative proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.]

We have an objection.

I will defer voting on the motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Teacher recruitment

The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths and amendent 2 in the name of Siân Gwenllian. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

Item 8 is the Welsh Conservatives debate on teacher recruitment, and I call on Laura Anne Jones to move the motion.

Motion NDM7811 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the hard work and dedication of teachers and school staff across Wales throughout the COVID-19 pandemic.
2. Acknowledges that teachers in Wales continue to face unprecedented pressures as we move out of the pandemic and implement a new curriculum.
3. Believes that falling teacher numbers in Wales will adversely impact the ability of learners to overcome the adverse impact of the pandemic on their education.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to urgently bring forward a plan to boost teacher recruitment, which includes:
a) setting targets to deliver 5,000 teachers across Wales in the next five years;
b) refunding tuition fees for those who go on to work as teachers for at least five years in Welsh schools;
c) establishing a Welsh education advisory service to improve access to employment opportunities and establish more pathways into the teaching profession;
d) guaranteeing all newly qualified teachers with at least one year of employment in a Welsh school or college.

Motion moved.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'd like to move the motion laid before us in the name of Darren Millar. Moving to the amendments, amendment 1 we will not be supporting as it sets out to delete all after point 1 in our motion. This is a motion that puts forward a constructive plan that seeks to address the teacher recruitment and staff shortage crisis that we're currently facing in Wales. Of course, we would agree with the sentiments outlined in points 2, 3 and 4 of amendment 1, which are similar to the tone in our own motion, and I will go on to recognise some of the positive steps that the Welsh Government has taken. But point 5, Minister—I would certainly like some clarification from the Minister as to why this was even included. It's slightly confusing, and from my understanding—correct me if I'm wrong—education is fully devolved here in Wales. Teachers' pay is fully devolved here in Wales from 2018, as set out in the explanatory memorandum to the School Teachers’ Pay and Conditions (Wales) Order 2020.
As we're discussing teachers' pay in Wales, apart from trying to shift the blame to the UK Government and attempt to have another pop at them—which I know you enjoy doing as a Government, which is both draining and baffling in this case, and which, considering the point, is completely irrelevant to this motion—I can only think it's an attempt to hide the fact that you have no concrete plan in place to address the concerns that we, the unions and teaching staff at schools have raised time and time again,which are laid out in our motion today. I can't see that point 5, apart from being churlish, is offering any constructive comment to this Welsh Conservative motion and debate today, which is actually trying to make a difference to the lives of children and teaching staff here in Wales.
As for amendment 2, we'll also not be supporting this. It's a great shame that Plaid's amendment offers nothing new or constructive to add to our motion. It suggests deleting point 4, which is the main point in our motion and offers a constructive plan to support teacher recruitment and address staff shortages here in Wales. I can't disagree with any content within it, but by deleting our point 4, it would water down any positive suggestions that we are putting forward to the Government here today and, as such, we will not be supporting it.
I'll debate a point that needs to be made in this Chamber until I'm blue in the face, but I also give credit where credit is due, and this Government has made some efforts, as you've outlined, to improve teacher recruitment and staff shortages, but it's just not good enough—it's really not. In terms of teacher recruitment, if I was a teacher marking this Government's effort on teacher recruitment and staff shortages, I would add these comments: not a bad effort, but there is much room for improvement. You, the Welsh Government, make some aggressive amendments to our motion, but the facts are there. Wales is currently facing a teacher shortage crisis, and it is for this reason that we, the Welsh Conservatives, have brought this debate to the Chamber today to highlight this, and to ask you on behalf of the children and teaching staff in Wales, to make a plan to safeguard their education by improving teacher recruitment in Wales, and to do so as a matter of urgency due to the urgent need to do so.
I would like to at this point take this opportunity to pay tribute, Deputy Presiding Officer, to recognise the hard work and dedication of teachers and school staff across Wales, particularly during this COVID pandemic. It has been an exceptionally difficult time for them and pupils, and all teaching staff are continuing to do an exceptional job whilst facing continuing and increasing pressures. These pressures were apparent and prevalent well before the pandemic began, because of the chronic underfunding by successive Labour-led Welsh Governments. We acknowledge that teachers in Wales continue to face unprecedented pressures as we move out of the pandemic and implement the new curriculum. Through increased workloads, staff and pupil absences increasing due to COVID, and a significant impact on teachers' well-being, they are all hampering the roll-out of the new curriculum, as well as having an impact, of course, on staff recruitment.
I commend the work that you outlined last week in this Chamber that you're doing on mental health and supporting staff mental health, as a result of reacting to the crisis in schools that teaching staff are facing in terms of mental health: 82 per cent of school staff responding to a survey saying that it has a negative impact on their mental health. Teachers' workloads substantially increasing also raised concerns about staff burn-out. Schools have suffered people leaving the profession for some of these reasons that I've outlined already, and they are struggling to recruit new teachers, and thus have become overly dependent on supply teachers, as well as substantially and disproportionately increasing the workload of teaching assistants, as outlined by my colleague, Peter Fox, yesterday. It is clear that this Government need to bring forward a plan to boost teacher recruitment in Wales for a variety of different reasons. After two decades of Welsh Labour-led Governments, they have managed to oversee a decline in teachers' numbers of 10.3 per cent between 2011 and 2021, including a drop in numbers of teachers able to teach through the medium of Welsh—something my colleague will clarify later.
A clear plan is what we need from this Government: a clear plan to set targets to deliver 5,000 teachers across Wales in the next five years, to refund tuition fees for those that go on to work as teachers for at least five years in Welsh schools, and to guarantee all newly qualified teachers at least one year of employment in a Welsh school or college. Ambitious, but it's forward thinking, and we want that teacher recruitment and retainment in Wales. Are you wanting a—? No.
To achieve this, the Education Workforce Council could be given powers to accredit different roles into the profession, including allowing teachers from other countries to convert their qualifications to those permitting them to work in Wales. A lack of funding from this Welsh Government has hampered the ability of schools to employ sufficient numbers of staff. The National Association of Head Teachers have raised this as a very real concern, and it's just not good enough. We need fundamental reform of teacher recruitment, which is why we are calling on this Welsh Government to establish a Welsh education advisory service to improve access to employment opportunities and establish more pathways into the teaching profession. This will allow a new route for teacher recruitment by creating a new database of qualified teachers, allowing schools to more easily search for teachers and schools to fill vacancies, operated using data from the Education Workforce Council in Wales. Teachers could capitalise on this, then, by providing in-house continuous professional development, upskilling and reskilling, which would be a great opportunity.
I look forward to the Government's response to our debate today, and hearing the plans that they have to tackle this ongoing crisis and the legitimate concerns of our schools, and I hope Members across the Chamber can support our motion today.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Education and Welsh Language to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all after point 1 and replace with:
2. Expresses its gratitude to the entire education workforce for prioritising the well-being of learners and its commitment to implementing the new curriculum despite the unprecedented pressures of the pandemic
3. Believes the well-being of the education workforce is of paramount importance.
4. Recognises that professional learning is essential for a high-quality and motivated workforce.
5. Condemns the Westminster Government’s public sector pay freeze and the impact it has on teachers at a time of unprecedented pressure on the workforce
6. Welcomes that:
a) there was a 40 per cent increase in applications for teaching courses last year.
b) salaries for new teachers in Wales have increased 15.9 per cent since 2019 and that the Welsh Government helped deliver a 1.75 per cent pay rise for all teachers this year despite the public sector pay freeze.
c) Welsh Government additional funding this financial year has helped match over 400 newly qualified teachers with schools.
d) Wales’s focus on teachers’ professional learning has been found to be 'exceptional in comparison to many other OECD jurisdictions and provides a strong basis for the enhancement of professional learning in schools'.
e) Wales is leading the way with a statutory whole-school approach framework guidance, which is designed to support the well-being of staff as well as learners.

Amendment 1 moved.

Jeremy Miles AC: Formally.

I call on Siân Gwenllian to move amendment 2, tabled in her name.

Amendment 2—Siân Gwenllian
Delete point 4 and replace with:
Believes that falling teacher numbers are influenced by a myriad of factors, including workload, unnecessary bureaucracy, staffing and personnel issues, inspection processes, as well as funding and budgeting related issues;
Further believes that addressing recruitment issues has to be a multi-pronged approach, focusing on valuing the profession and creating better working conditions and opportunities.

Amendment 2 moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Thank you very much. The main reason we decided to table our amendment to the motion today was to highlight the fact that the issue of teacher retention is more complex and multifaceted than issues around staffing and personnel alone; it is broader than the scope of this motion. Of course, personnel and staffing issues are important, and we shouldn't forget that recruitment campaigns are also crucially important, but we need to invest more in schools in order to employ more staff, if we really want the Welsh language to prosper, if we want the new curriculum to succeed,if we want to reform additional learning needs education in full, then the reality of the losses in education that we've suffered during the pandemic are also a cause of great concern. And we truly need to ensure that there's a plan in place to meet the huge challenge of restoring education.
However, when it comes to a matter of giving the workforce a boost, we must bear in mind that there are myriad reasons as to why people leave the profession, and at the moment, one in three teachers are quitting the classroom within the first five years in post. Evidence from broad research and indeed, common sense tells us that the main factors related to retention problems in education are teacher welfare as well as workload issues, accountability issues, inspection processes, bureaucracy, funding and budgeting and a lack of professional development opportunities—a whole range of issues. And in order to secure the strong education workforce that we need in Wales, then the Government must respond to all of the factors that relate to teacher retention, and that's why we believe that we need a multifaceted approach to tackle recruitment and retention issues, a plan that focuses on appreciating the profession and creating better working conditions and opportunities for our educators.
It strikes me too that the Conservative motion doesn't make any reference to the Welsh language. There is a shortage of over 300 Welsh-medium primary teachers and 500 in the secondary sector, and that is a cause of great concern. The Welsh Government has introduced a number of interventions in order to try and attract more to train as Welsh-medium teachers, but in reality, we need more strategic and far-reaching changes if we are to change these patterns.
Funding issues and budgeting issues place a huge burden on teachers and school leaders, having an impact on their well-being and therefore on retention levels, and one solution would be to provide longer term budgets for education so that schools and FE can plan and better use their resources, and the Welsh Government needs to ensure that that funding reaches the front line in an effective and timely manner.
Surveys suggest that most teachers don't feel that their voices are being heard by the Welsh Government, but in order to create the profession that we want to see developed if we are to create an attractive profession to promote recruitment and retention, then the Government must listen to teachers and school leaders. And the workforce also needs to see that the Welsh Government is pressing for very real change in policy in practice areas that have an impact on their well-being, as well as issues related to workload, accountability, inspection—all of these myriad issues that do place huge pressures on our teaching workforce.
In the long term, we must resolve this problem, or we are depriving our children and future generations of an education that truly respects the workforce, and we will be losing more and more teachers and losing one of the most valuable resources that we have as a nation, namely, the teaching workforce.

James Evans MS: Teaching is an honourable profession. We all have family members, friends and acquaintances who teach. We have all benefited from the hard work, dedication, effort and love that our teachers showed us from our early years and then when we became adults. We all hold fond memories and perhaps not so fond memories of our time in school. It is a vital time in our lives when we learn so much, not just academically, but about social situations, forming bonds with other people and learning what is and isn't socially acceptable. I have fond memories myself of school. I didn't quite enjoy school a lot of the time, but I can remember having quite lively debates with my teachers about world events, and it was always quite encouraging, and they always encouraged me to have a go and got me involved in the school council and tried to make a real difference for pupils. I do really appreciate the encouragement that I was given in school.
School years are vitally important for our development. They shape who we are. But, all too often we measure this in academic success—in GCSE and A-level results, and not the life skills that we develop while we are in school. We can all remember that teacher that went above and beyond and that inspired us and made us believe in ourselves. Having the right number of qualified teachers, assistants and school staff is vital.
We are currently experiencing a shortage of teachers qualifying and wanting to come to Wales to teach. This is no easy task to fix, Minister, and I don't envy any Government trying to get to grips with this issue. But, it has been going on for some years, and we need to seriously look at what is happening.
Are teachers underpaid? I would argue, absolutely—especially those who are newly qualified. It takes years to train to be an educator, and when qualifying, many just can't live the life that they deserve with the wages that they are on. With house prices currently out of control and the standard of living becoming evermore expensive, teachers simply aren't paid a wage that reflects the work that they do.

Joyce Watson AC: Will you take an intervention?

James Evans MS: Yes, Joyce, I'll take an intervention.

Joyce Watson AC: I thank you for taking an intervention, and I note your comments about teachers' pay. So, does this mean that you disagree with your Government's public sector pay freeze, and that you welcome the 1.75 per cent teachers' pay rise that the Welsh Government has put in place?

James Evans MS: Thank you, Joyce. Actually, teachers' pay is devolved to the Government. So, if you have an issue with what teachers are paid, I take it that you should have a look at the front bench and take it up with the Minister himself.
I do hope that the Government does look to ensure that teachers' wages are an issue that is dealt with, because we are finding recruitment to my area of mid Wales getting harder with the lack of affordable homes and available opportunities for these people. While recruitment in cities is attractive for young professionals, we need to ensure that Wales is an attractive place to work right across the country, both in urban and rural areas. We need a guarantee that all newly qualified teachers will get at least one year's employment in a Welsh school or college.
In rural communities, teachers are an integral part of the local community, and they should be valued for the immense role that they have in shaping our younger generations. Ever-decreasing school budgets are putting more and more pressure on teachers to deliver that high-quality education for less, and that puts a huge strain on teachers, headteachers and governors.
Finally, bureaucracy. This can be an overused word, but it is one that I find is said to me time and time again by teachers and others, along with 'overworked' and 'underappreciated'. The pathways into teaching need to be widened. For example, teachers in Wales need Bs in English and maths to teach in Wales. In England, they need Cs. This gives far more people the opportunity to train to be teachers. Many may consider a career in teaching in Wales, but just won't be able to qualify here because they didn't achieve a B grade when they were 16 years old. They may then choose to go on and do something else.
So, this does seem a backwards policy that restricts a number of amazing and talented teachers from teaching here in Wales, and we judge someone's job prospects and future career path on a test at 16. This is something that I think really needs to be addressed, and also to establish a Welsh education advisory service to improve employment opportunities and establish more pathways into the teaching profession.
I believe this—and a combination of factors—is affecting the recruitment of teachers, and that we need to seriously look at this. We need to deliver 5,000 more teachers across Wales in the next five years. Consistently, I hear Ministers in this place saying that they are trying to fix things. I hope that that is right, because our teachers are the people who help our younger generations develop the skills that they have to fix tomorrow's problems. Diolch, Deputy Llywydd.

Gareth Davies AS: I would like to put on record my thanks to the teaching profession for their efforts to maintain education standards during this most challenging of periods. Sadly, teachers and school staff have had one hand tied behind their backs during this pandemic. Despite the Welsh Government's lack of leadership during the COVID-19 outbreak, educational standards haven't suffered the decline that many felt would occur. But, at what cost?
The toll that the pandemic has taken on pupils, teachers and staff has been monumental. While the vast majority of pupils will recover academically, the loss of face-to-face teaching will have had a longer term effect on their mental well-being and emotional development. For many communities, particularly many of those in my constituency of the Vale of Clwyd, online learning is not an option. It is not an option because there are simply no reliable broadband connections. Parents in many parts of the Vale of Clwyd do not have reliable internet, and many of those that have an internet connection don’t have the devices to support Zoom classes for their children as well as remote working for themselves. Even now, we are seeing entire year groups or even schools sent home for weeks on end due to COVID. The on-again, off-again nature of schooling impacts pupils, teachers and parents—all because the Welsh Government failed to get a grip on the pandemic sooner, failed to show leadership and failed to protect pupils and staff.
But it’s the toll taken on an already demoralised teaching profession that will have the biggest impact on our ability to educate future generations. Long before the SARS-CoV-2 virus found its first human host, teachers were leaving the profession in droves. One in 10 left over the past decade. My fear is that many more will leave as a result of the pressures they've faced over the past 18 months. Teaching unions and the Trades Union Congress have reported on the fear experienced by an overworked and exhausted profession—a profession let down by this Welsh Labour Government, a Government who delivered a botched COVID action plan, from a test, trace, protect system that failed to test, trace or protect, to passing the decision making on face masks on to schools. Teachers have effectively been abandoned by Welsh Ministers. If we don’t reverse the decline in teaching numbers, not only will we be abandoning whole generations to falling education attainment, but we will not be training the future medics and social workers that Wales badly needs. I therefore urge Members to support our motion and help ease the burden on our hard-working teachers. Diolch yn fawr.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Given the importance of this afternoon's debate, it would be remiss of me not to touch on the important contributions of our Welsh-language teachers, in particular those in both primary and secondary education, who are working around the clock to deliver a first-rate Welsh-medium education to young people right across Wales—a key tool in the chest should the Welsh Government want to achieve their ambitious 'Cymraeg 2050' Welsh-medium strategy.
But, as Siân Gwenllian mentioned, it's a critical point in terms of the recruitment of Welsh-speaking teachers. Over the last five years, the number of individuals training to qualify as Welsh-medium teachers has been falling significantly year on year. On top of that, the rising rate of Welsh-medium teachers choosing to leave the profession within 10 years of qualifying means that our schools are reaching a crisis point.
The current workforce is overstretched, but it still manages to deliver a first-rate classroom education. And this is a testament to the hours of dedication and commitment from teachers. Now, I grew up in Pembrokeshire, where I received a bilingual education, and I can say personally how beneficial the Welsh language was to my schooling. The teachers that I had, such as Barbara Lewis and Jane Griffiths or Paul Edwards and Richard Davies, were excellent, in both in Welsh and English alike, and their ability to switch between both languages brought lessons alive and made school fun.
However, if the Welsh Government does not act, it's possible that the next generation of learners will miss out on the experience that I and many others received in school, and we must break the cycle where people grow up in a small town, they attend the closest university and they return to teach in that very same school in which they were taught. So, how do we recruit teachers from outside of Wales, who have different life experiences? And what support can we give them to learn and teach through the medium of the Welsh language? We cannot close the door on those from outside of Wales who wish to teach in our country. And as the coleg Cymraeg have said, we must be strategic and far reaching if the patterns outlined in this speech are to be changed. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Welsh language and education, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. As I start, I'd like to put on record my profound thanks once again to the entire education workforce for their incredible efforts in supporting our young people through these challenging times. Every one of us here today knows the important role that teachers and other school and college staff play in supporting young people's well-being, but, to do that, we must also support their well-being as well.
Supporting our education workforce's well-being is of paramount importance, and central to achieving this—and I welcome the acknowledgement by the Conservatives of this—is our whole-school approach to mental health and well-being. Yes, this supports learners, but it is more than that; it supports every single person involved in our education system. To help this work, we've commissioned Education Support, an expert organisation that supports mental health and well-being specifically for the workforce, and their project provides a range of bespoke services, including coaching and mentoring support for practitioners. This project will run throughout the 2021-22 academic year and will provide a range of services, ranging from resilience training, peer support groups and telephone support services, amongst other interventions. We've also supported an extension to the coaching and mentoring well-being project, developed by the regions in partnership with the Welsh Government last year.
Alongside our support for well-being, we know how important professional learning and development is to ensuring our workforce feel valued as professionals. Aligned with the professional standards, our national approach to professional learning creates a vision fit for our evolving education system, and integral to that approach is ensuring that professional learning is adequately resourced in terms of both funding and time for teachers, but also teaching assistants and school leaders. We are expecting a profound transformation in the way our practitioners and leaders think about their professional learning in light of the new curriculum and in the way we respond to the challenges of COVID. We will provide support to schools to enable them to make this step change.
To allow time and space for practitioners to work together across schools, record levels have been invested in professional learning since 2018. This has been awarded directly to schools to support curriculum implementation—an example of the funding to the front line that Siân Gwenllian was calling for in her contribution. It's my view that professional learning is an entitlement, backed by Government, that all teachers must have a right to, and I'm exploring ways that we can do more in this area to make this entitlement far easier to navigate, and we'll be updating Members further in due course.
We will continue to invest in a wide range of national programmes, including our professional enquiry programme, the teaching assistants learning pathway and the national professional qualification for headship. Alongside these is support for early career practitioners, our new Master's programme, the Welsh language sabbatical scheme and the national leadership offer. And when we talk to teachers, it's this sort of richer support offer that will help us to continue to increase teacher recruitment. All of this equates to a system where we invest in our practitioners and in their professional development.
We've worked with the OECD, which some Members have referred to in the debate, to evaluate the professional learning progress that we have been making. In recent weeks, they've declared that our focus on teachers' professional learning is exceptional in comparison to many other OECD jurisdictions, and, in their words, provides a strong basis for the enhancement of professional learning in schools.

Jeremy Miles AC: Over the past 18 months, the changes to normal working patterns and the disruption in school have been unprecedented. The education profession has responded to these challenges, showing an incredible level of flexibility and resilience and continuing to show excellent levels of professionalism. May I help Laura Jones with some confusion in her speech? It is entirely unacceptable that the UK Government has decided to freeze public sector wages at a time when so many of our workforce have been working under these challenging circumstances. However, the point is, we as a Government have decided to provide £6.4 million towards the cost of the pay award in schools and sixth form colleges this year. Now, many argued against the devolution of teachers' pay and conditions, but, in the brief period since those powers were transferred to Wales, we have already shown that we can make a difference here. For example, since 2019, new teacher salaries have increased by 15.9 per cent—perhaps James Evans wasn't aware of that. We will build on that work to continue to develop a national system that is more unique, fairer and more transparent for all teachers.
The Conservative motion and the Plaid Cymru amendment note that the number of teachers is in decline, but that is incorrect. In 2020-21, we saw an increase of 40 per cent in the number of students who accepted places on initial teacher training courses, as compared to the previous year. According to early figures, recruitment levels for initial teacher training courses for 2021-22 will continue to be higher than the levels recorded in 2019-20. Indeed, the data published in January of this year suggested that we had 435 more teachers than we had in 2019-20.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Will you take an intervention?

Jeremy Miles AC: Yes, certainly.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I hear what you say in terms of the numbers that are currently on initial teacher training courses increasing, and that's good to hear, but the problem is that one out of all three leave after five years, and it's that that's causing the major problem. It's about the retention of teachers; that's the main problem, and surely that's what you should be focusing on.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I was going to make a comment on Siân Gwenllian's contribution, and I think she discussed a range of things that need to be done in order to support the workforce—to attract the workforce in the first instance, and to support them in the longer term. It's true that we need to do a range of different things. I've referred to some of those in my speech already, but Siân Gwenllian and Samuel Kurtz also mentioned challenges in recruiting to the Welsh-medium sector, and I accept that more needs to be done in that area. We do have some work ongoing in drawing up a plan with partners in order to attract more Welsh-medium teachers to our schools, which is crucial if we are to reach our targets. But, although the increase that I've mentioned is to be welcomed, we recognise that there is still more work to be done, particularly in those areas where recruitment is more challenging.
To respond to the impact that COVID-19 has had on teachers who are undergoing training, we are investing over £7 million to provide long-term placements to newly qualified teachers to tackle some of those challenges. And working closely with local authorities, the regions and the Education Workforce Council, we have found an appropriate school for over 400 newly qualified teachers. This creates additional capacity for schools, enabling them to enable learners to get over this recent time and to develop the curriculum for Wales.
To conclude, Dirprwy Lywydd, supporting the education profession is a key priority for this Government. To do this, we are investing more money than ever before in professional training, we are taking steps to support well-being, and we will continue to do everything we can to release capacity and to remove bureaucracy, so that they can continue to do what they do best—namely to inspire and educate the young people and children of Wales.

I call on Tom Giffard to reply to the debate.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. It's a real pleasure for me as a former teaching assistant to respond to this debate today. I think it's been a really interesting debate, with a lot of different perspectives on exactly what the problem is. And I was actually, in part, encouraged by the Minister's response to a number of the problems. Laura Anne Jones in her initial remarks talked about the over-dependence on supply teachers and the pressures that puts on teaching assistants—because it's important to remember that these shortages are not just shortages on a spreadsheet, they have real-life impacts in classrooms, and the effect that that has on existing staff I think Laura covered really well. She also mentioned about how we need more pathways into the profession. People with—. Not just—sorry, I can't remember who said it now—people who have left university only to return to teach in the school that they themselves learnt in, but people with life experience from other walks of life, and that's really important too. So, those are some of the things our motion today is looking to achieve.
Siân Gwenllian was right to say that the reasons for this teacher recruitment shortage are very complex indeed, and the point she made about teachers leaving the profession within the first five years was entirely correct. I was a little bit disappointed by the Minister's reaction to that particular intervention, because he mentioned there was more to do, but was very non-specific, I thought,about exactly what action he was taking to address that.
Samuel Kurtz spoke at length about the crisis with Welsh language teachers in particular, and if we don't tackle that problem, reaching the 2050 target of Welsh speakers becomes very, very difficult indeed. So, we need real action on that, and if you look at the age profile of a number of the Welsh language teachers that are currently in the profession as well, this is something that's worth looking at too. So, this is a problem that, if we don't tackle today, is only going to continue to get worse.
I particularly liked James Evans's contribution, because, going back to what I said earlier about numbers on a spreadsheet and the number of teachers in the profession, teachers have much more of a value than that. Teachers have a real-life impact on the pupils and the communities that they teach in. They teach more than just the curriculum, and, going back to what Laura said, that's why it so important that people with other life experiences get into the profession and teach, because we know the impact that they can have as well, because they become a real part of the communities they serve in.
And Gareth Davies was right, as well, to point out the effects that the pandemic has had on teaching. I'd wager that there aren't many professions, probably, over the last 18 months, that have had to change and adapt more than the teaching profession has had to do. So, I was encouraged then to hear the Minister—and I welcomed some of the things that the Minister said—talk about professional learning and development, and I welcome the investment he mentioned in that as well, because I think that is really important. But I do note that he talked a lot about the role that regional partnerships had in doing that, but, unfortunately, Estyn found that, whilst they did play a positive role, that was underdeveloped and patchy across Wales, particularly in our shared—in the part of the world that we represent—ERW region, which is another story in and of itself.
So, I just wanted to use my time today to focus on the new curriculum. Teachers in Wales are facing significant pressures to plan for and implement that new curriculum, which is adding to the workloads of many who are already overworked. Whilst a recent survey commissioned by the Welsh Government found very strong levels of commitment to the curriculum reforms among teaching staff, there were also significant concerns within schools about a number of key aspects concerning its implementation. It showed around half of the senior leaders were not clear about how assessment arrangements will change in their school following the reforms and what their school is required to do to plan their assessment arrangements. Only 21 per cent of school leaders believed they had sufficient time to prepare for the roll-out of the curriculum, with just over half of senior leaders disagreeing with the statement that:
'To date, sufficient time has been available within the school calendar to prepare for the new curriculum'.
Some schools are struggling to prepare for the new curriculum, with 13 per cent of school leaders believing that their school did not have sufficient staff capacity to design the new curriculum either, and this comes back to the point in our motion today that the Welsh Government should set that target, firm and in writing, of recruiting 5,000 new teachers over the next five years, because recruiting more staff can alleviate many of the concerns raised not just by us as politicians, but by teachers, parents and senior leaders alike.
One thing that has come across as a result of this lack of a target, vision and planning from the Welsh Government when it comes to teaching recruitment is how heavily reliant schools are now, as Laura Anne Jones said, on supply teachers because of the lack of other teachers in Wales. Schools in Wales spent approximately £250 million on supply staff across Wales from 2016-21, and, yes, supply teachers are a major lifeline for schools and they do a very good job, but that is not a long-term solution. Schools have had to deal with staff shortages and self-isolation, of course, over the last years of the pandemic, but this overreliance on supply teachers needs to end, and we need more permanent teachers in schools, more than anything, for the value that James Evans spoke about, which they can give in their schools as well.
So, I think we're stood at a crossroads today. Our motion is very clear—there is a plan to deal with it. This is a problem and it will not change overnight, but what I will say is the alternative is doing nothing, and doing nothing is what got us into this situation.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will therefore defer voting on this motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

We now reach voting time, but we will need to take a short break to prepare for the voting. So, a short break.

Plenary was suspended at 18:04.

The Senedd reconvened at 18:11, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

9. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time, and the first vote this afternoon is on the debate on a Member's legislative proposal and employee ownership Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Huw Irranca-Davies. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 28, 13 abstentions, and 15 against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 7 - Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal - An employee ownership Bill: For: 28, Against: 15, Abstain: 13
Motion has been agreed.Click to see vote results

The next vote is on the Welsh Conservatives' debate on teacher recruitment, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 15, no abstentions, and 41 against, and therefore the motion is not agreed.

Item 7 - Welsh Conservatives' debate - Motion without amendment: For: 15, Against: 41, Abstain: 0
Motion has been rejected.Click to see vote results

We will move now to amendment 1. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, no abstentions, 27 against, and therefore the amendment is agreed.

Item 7 - Amendment 1 - tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 29, Against: 27, Abstain: 0
Amendment has been agreed.Click to see vote results

Amendment 2 is deselected.

Amendment 2 deselected.

I therefore call for the final vote, on the motion as amended.

Motion NDM7811 as amended
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Recognises the hard work and dedication of teachers and school staff across Wales throughout the COVID-19 pandemic.
2. Expresses its gratitude to the entire education workforce for prioritising the well-being of learners and its commitment to implementing the new curriculum despite the unprecedented pressures of the pandemic.
3. Believes the well-being of the education workforce is of paramount importance.
4. Recognises that professional learning is essential for a high-quality and motivated workforce.
5. Condemns the Westminster Government’s public sector pay freeze and the impact it has on teachers at a time of unprecedented pressure on the workforce.
6. Welcomes that:
a) there was a 40 per cent increase in applications for teaching courses last year.
b) salaries for new teachers in Wales have increased 15.9 per cent since 2019 and that the Welsh Government helped deliver a 1.75 per cent) pay rise for all teachers this year despite the public sector pay freeze.
c) Welsh Government additional funding this financial year has helped match over 400 newly qualified teachers with schools.
d) Wales's focus on teachers' professional learning has been found to be "exceptional in comparison to many other OECD jurisdictions and provides a strong basis for the enhancement of professional learning in schools".
e) Wales is leading the way with a statutory whole-school approach framework guidance, which is designed to support the well-being of staff as well as learners.

Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 41, no abstentions, and 15 against, and therefore the motion as amended is agreed.

Item 7 - Welsh Conservatives debate - Motion as amended: For: 41, Against: 15, Abstain: 0
Motion as amended has been agreed.Click to see vote results

And that concludes voting time. We will now move on to the short debate.

10. Short Debate: Wales Young Farmers Clubs: Developing conscientious young people in rural Wales

Today's short debate is to be brought forward by Samuel Kurtz, so I will invite Samuel Kurtz to take the floor.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Llywydd, and I have agreed to give James Evans, Rhun ap Iorwerth, Peter Fox, Cefin Campbell and Alun Davies a minute each of my time. I would like to declare an interest before I begin.
The Wales Federation of Young Farmers Clubs, known more commonly as Wales YFC, is a voluntary youth organisation and registered charity operating bilingually throughout rural Wales. My YFC life started as a spotty, brace-wearing 12-year-old dragged along to a club's panto practice by my older brother.

Member of the Senedd: Oh no you weren't.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Oh yes I was. [Laughter.]
Now, a little older, with fewer spots but still with braces, I have the huge privilege of being Pembrokeshire YFC's chairman, and I'm proudly wearing my Pembrokeshire YFC tie today.
So why, then, have I in my first short debate in this Siambr felt the need to discuss Wales YFC? Is it the countless friends that I've made and continue to make through my involvement within this organisation? Is it the many skills that young people are able to learn and develop between the membership ages of 10 and 28? For me, as someone who has been through the movement, I think too few people outside of it actually fully understand, realise and appreciate what the YFC has to offer.
Wales YFC was founded in 1936, and there are 12 county federations across Wales. The oldest club is Clunderwen YFC, a stone's throw from my own constituency, in my neighbouring constituency, Paul Davies's, of Preseli Pembrokeshire. This club was founded in 1929 by Mr E.R. Phillips, whose name is now given to the trophy presented to the Pembrokeshire club that has contributed the most to charity and their local community.
In the year prior to COVID, Wales had 4,645 members. Sadly, and understandably, membership dropped by more than 50 per cent in the year 2020-21 to 2,173. However, we have already seen a host of members return to the movement in the last couple of months as restrictions allow, and the upper age limit has increased from 26 to 28.
Young farmers clubs provide a meeting place for young people in rural Wales to socialise, learn new skills, compete and experience new things. However, the name is a bit of a misnomer, because you don't actually have to be a farmer to be a young farmer. Naturally, while there are many competitions that lean towards agriculture, from farm safety and fence erecting to flower arranging and stock judging, there are also competitions such as the on-stage pantomimes and dramas, public speaking, sports competitions and many more. There really is something for everyone.

Samuel Kurtz MS: This organisation in Wales is bilingual, with a number of competitions through the medium of Welsh, with the Young Farmers Eisteddfod shown on S4C very often. The Welsh language and culture of Wales are dovetailed with the young farmers organisation.

Samuel Kurtz MS: While Wales YFC is a charity itself, its members are never shy of raising some much needed funds for other charities, both local and national. My favourite YFC memory was when I was one of 27 other members and supporters of Pembrokeshire YFC who cycled the 250 miles from Haverfordwest showground to our national annual general meeting in Blackpool, over four days. We were hosted by another YFC on our stopover in Oswestry, and upon arriving in Blackpool were greeted by cheering, slightly intoxicated, crowds. As the dust settled and the saddle sores healed, mine included, the total raised was £27,000, split between Prostate Cymru and Wales Air Ambulance.
The movement also offers accredited training and travel opportunities to far-flung corners of the world. It even offers what some would consider more simple things, such as how to chair a meeting successfully, and as a member of the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee, I can see those excellent chairmanship skills in play as Paul Davies himself is a former young farmer member, and chairs the committee with excellent skills.
The constraints of the last 18 months, however, have meant that the movement has had to adapt. While club nights and competitions have moved online, young farmers didn't forget about their role in their locality. Throughout the pandemic, members across Wales served their local communities with distinction. Even before the first lockdown in March 2020, clubs were already organising shopping trips and prescription pick-ups for their most vulnerable neighbours. As the lockdown took hold, it was the YFC members, as part of the volunteer network, who supported our most rural and vulnerable. Members did this for no other reason than to support those who needed it, while, of course, many young farmers continued to farm the land, tend to their animals and look after their crops.
I was reminded of this when, on Sunday evening, at the Pembrokeshire YFC harvest thanksgiving festival, each and every club in the county donated a large hamper of food towards local food bank, PATCH. Even at a service where the young farmers could have easily sat back and been thankful for what they had, they were not only thinking of but supporting those who are far less fortunate—testament to the young farmers. Last week at the royal opening of the Senedd, Eleri George, past chairman of Pembrokeshire's Keyston YFC, was here representing her club as a COVID champion—a small acknowledgement of the many members who supported their communities throughout this time.
And that's really why I wanted to bring forward this short debate this afternoon on the YFC movement, because when some people want to tarnish the youth of today as selfish, lazy and rude, I can honestly say that those people must never have dealt with the conscientious, caring and selfless members of the young farmers clubs of Wales.
And if I may, Minister, listening on Zoom, I would like to link back to some of the points that your colleague the Minister for Economy mentioned in his statement yesterday. He talked about the Welsh Government's young person's guarantee, and how the Jobs Growth Wales+ programme would help to create life-changing opportunities for those who are not in education, employment or training. He also mentioned the value that supporting stronger local economies will have in helping to sustain the Welsh language amongst young people in rural Wales in particular. If this Government is looking for examples of where these aspirations are already in action, where young people are supported, their skills developed and the Welsh language sustained, then they need look no further than the YFCsof Wales, who've been producing conscientious young people in rural Wales for decades.
This afternoon's short debate for me has been a labour of love. I'm quite adamant that I wouldn't be here or be the person I am without the YFC, and for that, while some opposition Members may not be, I am eternally grateful. But how many young people out there could benefit from this organisation? How can we here help to support our local YFCs to recruit more members, improving the opportunities for those who may not have them? Therefore, I urge all Members listening to this debate, and what I can only imagine to be the many hundreds and thousands of people watching this debate live, to go and tell people that you know about what the YFC can offer the young people of Wales. And remember, you don't have to be a farmer to be a young farmer. Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much for the opportunity to take part in this short debate, an opportunity to say a few words and, very simply, to say thank you. That's what I want to do today, to say thank you to the YFC that provides so many opportunities to young people in rural Wales, to say thank you for an organisation that makes such a contribution to rural society in Wales, for an organisation that does so much to promote the Welsh language in those communities, and thank you, of course, to the whole host of wonderful volunteers who support the whole thing. My own children have had so many valuable opportunities through the YFC, and it's still an important part of our family life. And in this recent period, it's been a support to so many young people and to their communities, and we now need to provide and offer that support back to the organisation in turn, as it faces the challenges that have been posed as a result of this pandemic. Without a doubt, it's one of the most important youth organisations in Wales. It's proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt in its first 85 years, and we should all be promoting it to ensure that it has a vibrant future too.

James Evans.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd, andI hope you'll be flexible with my minute. I'd like to thank Sam Kurtz for giving a minute of his time today, but, more than that, I'd like to thank the whole of the YFC movement in Radnorshire for giving me the skills and the opportunity to be able to stand here today and speak in this debate. YFC does a huge amount of work to develop young people, from public speaking to helping charities, stock judging, teaching respect for communities and also finding your future love. [Laughter.]
YFC gave me the opportunity to represent my club of Rhosgoch at my county of Radnorshire, then to my country of Wales, and then national young farmers at the European council of YFCs. And to be able to represent young farmers from across the whole of England and Wales was a massive honour, and it was great. On Sunday, I was only giving back to an organisation that gave me so much by judging the public speaking competition, which was a fantastic standard, and well done to everybody involved.
YFC is a fantastic organisation, and personally I believe it is the best youth movement in the whole world. It's great, and I would like to thank everyone in the movement for the amazing work you do. As the previous YFC organiser for Radnorshire, Gaynor James, told me just after the election result, 'If it weren't for good old YFC, Evans, you wouldn't be where you are today.' And I'd like to confirm, if it wasn't for 'good old YFC', I definitely would not be here today. Diolch.

Alun Davies AC: I'd like to congratulate the Member for Pembrokeshire for this—. Well, not the whole of Pembrokeshire; I can see Paul Davies bridling at me.
If it was possible to bottle the YFC, I think we'd have something you could sell and distribute worldwide. One of the great pleasures of life has been to work with young people preparing for a county rally, or watching some of the public speaking competitions, and I wonder how many marks we would have got this afternoon. And then, looking also at things like the drama festivals taking place. It's a fantastic organisation that does a fantastic job, and alongside the Urdd, I think we're blessed in Wales. We have two organisations that contribute so much to developing young people and to providing them with a fantastic start in life. What I would like to see is how we can continue to work with the YFC to ensure that not just the future of farming is safe, that the future of rural communities is safe, but that the future of this country is safe as well, and I think we all owe a great debt of thanks to the YFC for the work they do, day in, day out, and also for all the fun that they've been able to generate for many of us over too many years. Thank you.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you to Sam for giving me a minute of his time to contribute to this important debate. Yes, we must recognise the huge contribution of the YFC, giving priceless experiences and skills for a lifetime for our young people. As Alun Davies said, we have seen so many of these young people developing and contributing to their communities when they're older and coming into very high positions in Wales, and the experience that they had with the YFC has been crucially important to them.
As many have already said, apart from being one of the most successful dating agencies in Wales, the YFC have given so many experiences to my children. Unfortunately, I didn't have the opportunity. In the Amman valley, there wasn't a YFC, but my children have had excellent experiences of being members of the young farmers at Llanfynydd, and taking part in eisteddfodau, public speaking competitions and even tug of war and things as great as that. As Sam said, one of the things that has been very encouraging to me is to see these young people during the pandemic supporting their communities, as you said, by collecting prescriptions and shopping and so on and so forth.
Just two things quickly. Some 70 per cent of all young farmers clubs are in mid and west Wales. Now, I'm not going to have the opportunity to visit all of them, but I would like to see many of them over the next few years. But the most important thing in those areas is that they hold their activities through the medium of Welsh and welcome Welsh learners and develop their skills too. I would go as far as to say that the YFC is one of the most important language organisations that we have here in Wales, and may that continue for the future. All the best to the young farmers.

Peter Fox AS: I'd like to thank Sam Kurtz for giving me a minute of his valuable time. I feel amongst friends today as we talk about this subject that binds us all together and it demonstrates the strength of the YFC movement in bringing us together. That movement has always been a fundamental part of the rural community: as Alun says, a key element of the fabric that binds all that is special about country life. I suppose I'm going to hark back to an older generation. I too had spots in those days, as I was growing up in rural Carmarthenshire, a member of St Cynog's young farmers club in the village of Llangynog. It was a place that really helped my personal development, for all of the reasons we've heard today. I remember going along to those public speaking contests, to the stock judging, to the preparation for rally, for the tug of war practice, for all of those things. That was 50 years ago, and it's still going strong today. But as Sam said, the young farmers movement isn't just a movement for farmers; it's a broad church, and even back those 50 years ago, there were people from all walks of life there. It's a proud movement that has so much to offer the young people of Wales. It brings out the very best of them, instilling confidence in creating well-rounded, strong and socially adjusted citizens who have an empathy and a love for the wonderful environment and the economies around them. We should never lose sight of our young farmers' contribution to rural life, and be ready to support them wherever we can. Long may it continue.

The Minister now to reply to the debate—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you very much, Sam Kurtz, for choosing such a fantastic topic for your first short debate. I'd like to thank other Members for their contributions too.
Through their activities, Wales's young farmers clubs provide unique opportunities for young people to develop their ambitions, their skills and their confidence, and these behaviours we know are absolutely invaluable as they look for employment, develop or take over an established farming business or seek to start new enterprises—or, indeed, become a Member of the Senedd, as we've heard from some of our new Members particularly today.
I think Sam raised a really important point when he said that sometimes, outside of the agricultural sector or our rural communities, young farmers clubs are a bit of a best-kept secret. I can't say that I was ever a member of a YFC, but I do remember—I'm trying to work it out—probably about 46 years ago being dragged to a local disco being run by a young farmers club, and the friend who dragged me there did indeed find her husband at the disco that night.
On Monday, my colleague Vaughan Gething, the economy Minister, started a conversation on the long-term demographic challenges facing the Welsh economy and the need to support our young people to make their future in Wales. So, I would like to reassure Sam, because he referred to that, that the role of Wales YFCis helping us achieve the same, and I think, going forward, will really be invaluable for us.
Our programme for government commits us to delivering our young persons guarantee, which is an ambitious programme that will aim to provide young people under 25 in Wales with support to gain a place in education or training, or support to get into work or self-employment. Wales already has many of the components in place to provide the basis for a good young persons guarantee. Young people have access to a wide variety of programmes that include traineeships, ReAct, community employability programmes, business start-up support and personal learning accounts, and partners such as YFC Wales do play a key part in supporting our young people to access such opportunities through the guarantee.
As a Government, we're also committed to developing an entrepreneurial culture, and through Big Ideas Wales, we want to inspire young people to be enterprising and help them on their journey to starting a business. Working with the YFC, Big Ideas Wales has provided inspirational role models for local meetings, providing business advice and support to their members looking to start a business. Similarly, the Welsh Government also continues to provide support for young entrants and those who want to enter the agricultural industry. Young people entering the industry ensure that a vibrant agricultural sector is maintained, ensuring employment opportunities so that young people can remain within their rural communities. It is essential, if we are to maintain viable and thriving communities, that young people have the confidence to achieve their ambitions within their rural communities.
The importance of this for the Welsh language was referred to by Sam and I don't think it can be underestimated, with the future of the language and our target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050 entwined with thriving rural communities. Our Welsh language division provides Wales YFC with a core funding grant of nearly £125,000 to promote and facilitate the use of the Welsh language within their programme of activities. This funding provides the Wales YFC office with over £63,000 to support their national initiatives and to fund a Welsh language development officer who is responsible for creating opportunities for young people to use the Welsh language, as well as supporting their members to become new Welsh speakers. The remaining £62,000 is distributed to all of the county federations, to be spent on specific activities to support the use of the language within each county.
We are all aware how significant a role the YFC plays in the lives of our young people in rural Wales—not least in recent years the steps that it has taken to raise awareness and mitigate the effects of mental health issues among its members. As a member of the Wales farm safety partnership, I know that the organisation has worked hard to reduce fatalities and accidents on farms by ensuring that its members are aware of how to reduce risks and also how to change behaviours.
When I received correspondence from the YFC last summer about the pandemic and the financial impact on the organisation, I asked my officials to meet with representatives of the organisation to explore possible avenues of support. I was pleased to hear that YFC was successful in its bid to the Welsh Government cultural resilience fund, having been awarded over £130,000 in 2020, with a further £87,000 awarded this year.
The enthusiasm and dedication of young people in Welsh agriculture and our wider rural communities is inspirational. As we have heard, there is no better example of this than during the pandemic. Even though the necessary COVID restrictions meant that clubs couldn't meet face to face, they continued to connect with each other and meet online. They supported their local communities by assisting and supporting those who were isolated and by helping key workers.
YFC members are a credit to their families, their clubs and wider rural communities. I am pleased that, as a Government, we continue to support the organisation, and I very much hope that Wales YFC, likewise, continues to support our young people who have a love for agriculture and rural life for many years to come. I look forward to many more entertaining and fun visits with YFC members over the coming months and years. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much for an excellent short debate, everyone. That brings today's proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 18:37.

QNR

Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution

Rhys ab Owen: What legal advice has the Counsel General given to the Welsh Government regarding levels of air pollution in Cardiff?

Mick Antoniw: The Welsh Government is committed to tackling air pollution in Wales and I understand the concerns around air pollution levels in Cardiff, and in Wales generally. The Welsh Government has taken action in order to bring areas which were not compliant with pollution limits into compliance in the soonest possible time.

Mabon ap Gwynfor: Does the Welsh Government intend to legislate to change the voting system for Senedd elections?

Mick Antoniw: The Senedd has established the Special Purpose Committee on Senedd Reform to consider this matter as part of its wider remit, and the Welsh Government stands ready to prepare legislation once the Senedd has agreed a package of reforms.

Peredur Owen Griffiths: What is the Government doing to ensure elections are run fairly in Wales?

Mick Antoniw: The Welsh Government continues to ensure elections in Wales are run free and fairly with a high level of public confidence. The Electoral Commission’s report of the 2021 Senedd Elections supports this, noting that the public were confident the elections were well-run despite taking place in unprecedented and challenging circumstances.

Alun Davies: Will the Counsel General make a statement on implementing the recommendations of the Commission on Justice in Wales?

Mick Antoniw: I published a written statement on Justice on 30 September, and just over ten days ago I had the privilege of addressing delegates at the Legal Wales Conference during which I re-affirmed our commitment to pursue the case for the devolution of justice and policing.

Questions to the Minister for Social Justice

Jayne Bryant: How is the Welsh Government protecting residents from fuel poverty this winter?

Jane Hutt: Improving the energy efficiency of lower income households through our Warm Homes Programme is helping to save on average £300 annually on energy bills. Additional support for families impacted by increased fuel costs and the removal of the Universal Credit uplift is being provided through our Discretionary Assistance Fund.

Jack Sargeant: What is the Welsh Government doing to raise awareness of how men can individually and collectively take responsibility for ending male violence towards women?

Jane Hutt: We are strengthening our Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence Strategy to tackle male violence and underlying attitudes of misogyny in order to make Wales the safest place in Europe to be a woman. Violence against women and girls is a societal problem which requires a societal response.

Paul Davies: What is the Welsh Government doing to support the voluntary sector in Pembrokeshire?

Jane Hutt: The Welsh Government provides core funding for the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and County Voluntary Councils to enable them to support local voluntary organisations and volunteering groups across Wales. £169,854 of this funding is provided to Pembrokeshire Association of Voluntary Services (PAVS) to support their local third sector.

Adam Price: Will the Minister make a statement on the progress of digital inclusion in Carmarthen East and Dinefwr?

Jane Hutt: Our digital inclusion and health programme, working with organisations, has supported over 4,000 citizens from Carmarthenshire to gain the motivation and basic digital skills needed to use the internet effectively. Having basic digital skills, motivation and confidence can help people gain and retain employment, access health services and support well-being.